Is Christmas Scriptual Or Not ?

[easyskanka]

There is a lot of bible based discussions going on in various threads at the
moment, so I thought, why not throw my own penny's worth in the ring.

Many denominations have their differences that keep them apart for the majority of the year, then december 25 rolls around and everyone, or almost everyone forgets their differences and starts wishing goodwill and ho ho ho to to each other.

Is it right though ? or is it one wrong that we are prepared to overlook for the sake of the children and the good vibes that the masses feel.

I think some people celebrate xmas in good faith,albeit in the back of their minds they might well be aware that it is heavily based in myth and falsehood.

So hands up those who are going to celebrate xmas and have a good time at the expence of truth and accuracy. Or am I just a kiljoy who has got it all wrong yet again. I'm far from being a saint, but I for one will not be celebrating xmas, and look forward to seeing the back of the whole shabang.
(if I hopefully live long enough of course):eusa_whis A happy new and good health to one and all, I hope we all live to see it and become better people for seeing it. Love and Peace and Understanding, may it all increase where it is necessary, in Jesus name, Amen.:eusa_pray

[rodalembs]

Well...easy... it would be good if you could give us a scriptual postion to depart from to get the debate going?

[tahtah_4755]

Well...easy... it would be good if you could give us a scriptual postion to depart from to get the debate going?

nuh true :eusa_thin :eusa_thin

[easyskanka]

Well...easy... it would be good if you could give us a scriptual postion to depart from to get the debate going?

Well sir, it is a broad church this xmas bizniz and with the wealth of intellect on display at CY, I don't think I need to pinpoint a specific scripture relating to this topic. I would just dearly like to see where those who believe in this rictual base their belief from, because quite honestly it beats me as to why it is celebrated when Paul nor the other early apostles obserrved Jesus's birth.

[Manu]

Xmas is actually a pagan holiday to celebrate the birth of a pagan God. Not withstanding, even though most christians tend to look at it as the actual day of Christ's birth, I look at it merely as a representative of the day he was born. I look at it as a day of reflection for when He came into this world. Yes I partake in the festivities but I'm not sure of the position of my church on it....officially that is...because my Church Hymnal has a good amount of Christmas Carols in them, under the sub-heading Christmas Carol....then it points you to another heading "Christ First Advent".

[rodalembs]

Xmas is actually a pagan holiday to celebrate the birth of a pagan God. Not withstanding, even though most christians tend to look at it as the actual day of Christ's birth, I look at it merely as a representative of the day he was born. I look at it as a day of reflection for when He came into this world. Yes I partake in the festivities but I'm not sure of the position of my church on it....officially that is...because my Church Hymnal has a good amount of Christmas Carols in them, under the sub-heading Christmas Carol....then it points you to another heading "Christ First Advent".

So how do you view the biblical accounts of:
The Magi (*sp)
The Three wise men
Herod and the plan to find the saviour
etc..etc...

:icon_arro Easy.. Do you beleive the historical accounts of the Immaculate Conception ?

[Manu]

I do believe the story about immaculate conception and three wise men. I just don't think it happened in winter.

[tahtah_4755]

it was in the winter season and i think the bible made reference of that but i'm not sure.. I jus don't believe it was on that day..

[Manu]

Shepherds tending to their flock in winter???? Wouldn't they horde grass and had them in barn houses than out in the cold with frozen foliage?

[tahtah_4755]

Shepherds tending to their flock in winter???? Wouldn't they horde grass and had them in barn houses than out in the cold with frozen foliage?

all a dat to:eusa_thin :eusa_thin

[rodalembs]

it was in the winter season and i think the bible made reference of that but i'm not sure.. I jus don't believe it was on that day..

ok..Cool So what drives this belief?

[tahtah_4755]

ok..Cool So what drives this belief?

wat?? not believeing he was born on d 25th?

[Sexysophie]

I am just celebrating his birth, I dont really care what time of the yr it is.:hyper:

[easyskanka]

So how do you view the biblical accounts of:
The Magi (*sp)
The Three wise men
Herod and the plan to find the saviour
etc..etc...

:icon_arro Easy.. Do you beleive the historical accounts of the Immaculate Conception ?

Yes sir, I believe in all of the above, but that was a recognition of his coming into the world. It is not beholden unto us to mix paganism with the fact that the Christ came into this world. Even when celebrating our own birthdays,we were not aware of our birth, and in fact it is a one off event that has gone for good. What people are actually celebrating is their date of birth, which somehow seems a tad rediculous to me.

[rodalembs]

My own postion, is that while there is not scriptual directive for the celebrration of Chirstmas on December 25th, The word does account for the coming , conception and birth of the Messiah. Henceforth if you chritmas experience is focused around, the birth of christs and what it means to the world then i do not percieve a problem.

[rodalembs]

wat?? not believeing he was born on d 25th?

What has led you to this conclusion?

[tahtah_4755]

jus don't believe its that day thats all...

For me christmas is a time for new clothes, and new stuff in general...
I do believe Jesus was born in the winter but not on that day if u can find something to show abt his birth on d 25th i will believe cuz i'm a believer..

[easyskanka]

jus don't believe its that day thats all...

For me christmas is a time for new clothes, and new stuff in general...
I do believe Jesus was born in the winter but not on that day if u can find something to show abt his birth on d 25th i will believe cuz i'm a believer..

Now here speaks an honest individual. This is the crux of the
matter.Christmas is really a time for self indulgence, wrapped up in the excuse that it is THE CHRIST that we are doing it for.

Those people who do not recognize santa clause and other peripherals surrounding the festivities are perhaps on the right track.

My own personal opinion is that we will always have an arguament on hand to defend our corner, such is human nature. However the truth will out. It is all a matter of time, something I don't honestly believe we have much left of at our disposal.

[little warchief]

Christmas may sound like a good thing in the views of christians because one might reason...."i am dedicating an event to jesus" which is his birth...... But if a true christian is to live by bible principles and be very cautious about what the world is doing then he should taken into the account where certain things are picked up from......The bible didn't really instructed anybody to celebrate his birth although it did say your to celebrate his death........Of course 25 of december is not Jesus's birthday but some say they have set aside a date since nobody knows which is understood......when jesus was born is was a time yes when sheperds were keeping watch over there flock as usual but this was in the cold time around......some may say and use this example interms of birthdays that the wise men presented gifts so why is it worng to present people with gifts on their birthdays or christmas.....but to really ask this question.....is it wrong to bring gifts for a baby who is born? dont normally when babies are borned today people give them gifts and so on. What help me to understand...is that after this there was no account of jesus having any special celebration for his birth afterwards nor you heard anybody givnig him gifts for his birthday......

Hence where did they come up with christmas???? First of all the romans had a festival that they celebrate called Saturnalia which was their sun god or moon god one of them.....which lasted for a week between december 17-23 of december ! it involved the exchanging of gifts and the mistle toe thing they also used to represent the menustration of this goddess i forgot her name .....i will reserach it and tell you...but most of the customs we do today interms of the spirit of christmas existed back then

when we look at chrismas now... we see its all about gifts....kids from other regions look foward to santa clause who doesn't exist......and other things people look forward to....to be fair you do have people who go around singing carols which i think is beautiful and some people genuinally recognize that this event is about jesus brithday but along the line they do forget its meaning at times.

So there was a reson why the celebration of jesus's birthday was not to be taking into the hands of humans for the fair of bad artificial customs would have occured !

[Xenocrates]

Easy wants answers damnit. Fine... I'll do it.

This is a long read - but it is educational and informative. Pull up a chair. I'm going to tell you that there is no Santa Claus..... the hard way:


Christmas was started by the Romans. It was a celebration of their God Saturn, and his rebirth - on the date of December 25th. The date was previously December 5th. This was going on long before Christ set foot on on this planet. The Roman Catholics made it into a "christian" holiday. Read on:


The word "Christmas" is a concatenation of two words: Christ and Mass - by the Roman Catholic church. Mass is from a latin word that means "Death" (I wonder how many RCs know this?). A Christ Mass should then be pretty obvious. Over 20 centuries later, Christ Mass became Christmas - a wholistically Roman Catholic Word.


It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died. These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun (can you see how this was later corrupted by the Catholics?). Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing daylight. This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession.


After Jesus passed through, the newly reformed Roman empire instituted a church which "sanitized" the hedonistic celebrations and created the "Christian worship" time as we know it today, by marrying a pagan festival to christian elements.


Most theologists believe that Jesus was born and died during the months of late March - early April. Some speculate September. But one thing is for sure: It never happened in December - not even close.


The wise men took 7 years to find the Christ. When they arrived, he was already a grown boy, almost 8 years old.


The "Star" that guided them was a supernova which occurred at that time, whose remains are now known as the Crab Nebula.


The Shepherds witnessed the heavenly apparition in late February, almost approximately 1 month before Christ was born in late April. The time was relatively cold, but it most certainly was not snowing.


Santa Claus has nothing to do with Christmas. Saint Nicholas of Holland was a young altar boy who went around stuffing the stockings of the poor with the gold that was stored in the Cathedral. He was posthumously "sainted" by the Catholic church years after he passed away. The story was carried to the USA. But in Holland, Sinter Klaas is the Dutch derivative expression for "Saint Nicholas". The yankee accent warped "sinter klaas" into "Santa Claus". :rolleyes:


The evergreen trees found in the coniferous forests of Germania were used as a form of worship - since they stayed green all year round. The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship. The evergreen trees were apart of their yule celebrations (hence "yuletide"). After the celebration was brought to the west, the trees lost their pagan meaning, and were iconified as "Christmas" trees.


Witches and pagans of all cultures regarded the red holly as a symbol of the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana. The holly wood was used by witches to make wands. The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to represent droplets of the semen of the sun god. They are poisonous, by the way. Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter them.


Everything else (the Reindeer, the little helpers, the gift exchange, the commercialization, etc, etc, and so, and so and so forth) were borne of advertising gimmicks during the early 20th Century. The rest of it was contributed by story tellers all along the line. Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer was one such advertising gimmick during 1939. Look what it has become now...


The commercialization of Christmas was Macy's fault. Macy's Department Store, New York, was the first company to use Christmas as a means to make millions. Other shrewd business owners caught on. It was a brilliant business idea. It tied it nicely with the gift giving bit. The rest is history. That's why today, they have the Macy's Day Parade down Times Square.

Today Christmas is nothing more than a modernisation of the Roman pagan holiday. It's still very much the same - even the evergreen tree is still there. :rolleyes:

Food for Thought: Christians were commanded to celebrate christ's death, not his birth. The only celebration that was authorized at his birth was already done by Angels. If you celebrate Christmas, you are partaking in a Roman Catholic authorized sanitization of a pagan holiday involving the worship of a false god, that has absolutely no bearing on biblical scripture whatsoever...

So why are well still at it, over 2100 years later? :eusa_thin

No wonder there are so many deaths around Christmas in Jamaica.

Baka neh?

[Manu]

OK....so out with the X-mas then? Oh well....neither here nor there for me. I can still celebrate Christ all year round and just enjopy the likkle holiday and department store sales :eusa_shif

[Xenocrates]

Hey! If they want to give us sales on tech-toyz, I'm game! Irrespective of the time of year! If they want to give us holidays, I'm game! Irrespective of the time of year! It's just more free time for me. I don't recognize it as a holy day of any sort.

I just prefer not to recognize Christmas for what they want us to think it is. I prefer to strip it of anything to do with christianity - because it has nothing to do with it. I think that Christmas is an insult to Christendom and modern intelligence. That the RCs would be responsible for this is expected - they've been messing with our cultures and dates for centuries. Furthermore, I don't need one day of the year to celebrate Jesus. That's a 24/7/365 deal for me. I'm sure the same is for all of you other God fearing people on the board.

Just don't tie the two together. That's all I'm saying. No self respecting christian (or pagan) would do that. That was the RC's idea. Don't buy into it - no pun intended. ;)

[little warchief]

the wise men did take awhile before they found jesus and actually the star led them to King herod first.....(matt 2: 1-6...or yu can read from 1-16) Herod wasn't please of this new born king the wise men spoke about so he sent out people to find jesus but didn't find him and found out that he had been trick so as Matt 2: 16 said he was furious and sent out to kill all the children who were 2 years and under according to the time which he ascertained from the wise men. so jesus wasn't around 8 ....he was somewhere under 2 when the wise men found him

[BlackCryptoKnight]

:eusa_thin

The evergreen trees found in the coniferous forests of Germania were used as a form of worship - since they stayed green all year round. The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship. The evergreen trees were apart of their yule celebrations (hence "yuletide"). After the celebration was brought to the west, the trees lost their pagan meaning, and were iconified as "Christmas" trees.

Jeremiah 10:2-5 KJV


2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.


Witches and pagans of all cultures regarded the red holly as a symbol of the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana. The holly wood was used by witches to make wands. The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to represent droplets of the semen of the sun god. They are poisonous, by the way. Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter them.
HOLLYWOOD :icon_eek:

Hmmm... :eusa_thin

[Malloc-X]

do most denominations celebrate christmas in jamaica? if what xeno is sayin is correct then they are all worshippin false gods so they are all goin to hell. its funny how the people with power manipulate the rest into beleivin they are all doing the right thing

[ramesh]

Some denominations do not recognise Christmas as being anything to do with Christ. I believe SDAs are one of those denominations.

[little warchief]

yeah they dont celebrate christmas either

[easyskanka]

:icon_arro Thank You Xeno for a most enlightening discourse. Respect is also due to the fact that you made not the slightest attempt to pull your punches on the subject.

I knew bits and pieces about the origin of xmas before now, but it was never illustrated so clearly to me before. I certainly learned a lot at a stroke. Now that many people have the bare facts at their disposal,will they continue to follow this rictual ? If they do,then perhaps it might answer the question on just how many people will also be prepared to accept the mark of the beast with a willing heart. Food for thought me thinks:eusa_pray

[easyskanka]

OK....so out with the X-mas then? Oh well....neither here nor there for me. I can still celebrate Christ all year round and just enjopy the likkle holiday and department store sales :eusa_shif

This is about as far as it goes for me at the moment,so welcome to the club mr. Manu:D

[easyskanka]

do most denominations celebrate christmas in jamaica? if what xeno is sayin is correct then they are all worshippin false gods so they are all goin to hell. its funny how the people with power manipulate the rest into beleivin they are all doing the right thing

I notice that you often mention folks going to hell Mallox. The fact is as individuals we cannot determine who is going to hell or not (thankfully so),that decision thankfully rests with God,also hell might not be everyting you imagine it to be,but that is perhaps for another thread.:)

I am not unsympathetic to those who celebrate christmas,afterall as a child I felt that certain 'magical' feeling that only children can have,on at least two occassions. Understandably parents want their own small kids especially,to have that same feeling. However if we learn that something has it's roots firmly established in pagan practices,then we should cast it off and find a different way to show each other how much we care.

When you love someone or a group of people, then the giving of a gift need not be pre-determined by fixed dates in the year. But the act of giving should be done whenever the heart impels you to do so. Even more pleasure can be had from this method me thinks.:D

[Jae]

I notice that you often mention folks going to hell Mallox. The fact is as individuals we cannot determine who is going to hell or not (thankfully so),that decision thankfully rests with God,also hell might not be everyting you imagine it to be,but that is perhaps for another thread.:)

I am not unsympathetic to those who celebrate christmas,afterall as a child I felt that certain 'magical' feeling that only children can have,on at least two occassions. Understandably parents want their own small kids especially,to have that same feeling. However if we learn that something has it's roots firmly established in pagan practices,then we should cast it off and find a different way to show each other how much we care.

When you love someone or a group of people, then the giving of a gift need not be pre-determined by fixed dates in the year. But the act of giving should be done whenever the heart impels you to do so. Even more pleasure can be had from this method me thinks.:D
Malloc is just evil,, or wants to be that's all. Which is why I don't pay him any mind when him start him demonic talking.

[little warchief]

BAM !!!!!!! A fist to hit malloc :)

[Malloc-X]

what demonic talk?, i am very nice person ask little warchief or xeno. i just like tellin people that they are goin to hell, i dont mean it, i just like sayin it :) and how could u guys think i am evil, i am hurt :'(

[tahtah_4755]

what demonic talk?, i am very nice person ask little warchief or xeno. i just like tellin people that they are goin to hell, i dont mean it, i just like sayin it :) and how could u guys think i am evil, i am hurt :'(


sssooooorrrrrrrreeeeeeee!!!!!
:confused: :confused: :(

[easyskanka]

I wonder just how many none believers will be sending and receiving gifts this christmas? Quite a lot I guess. One of life's major ironies or even eeeediat ting dat...oops wrong thread ?:confused:

[little warchief]

yo a eeeediat ting that ! :) you know it was the wrong thread

[hebrew sista]

http://yrm.org/b-day-sun.htm is excellent reading about how non biblical christ mass is, and xeno i must commend you on your very correct summarization on the topic.

even before i realized i was a hebrew israelite, i stopped celebrating christ mass; heck why do into debt once a year, and spend the rest of your life paying for things that will break in less than a week?

just the other day a white boy cussed me out because i told him i dont celebrate any of the pagan holidays, for some reason he actually acted like i attacked him or something! he said some most evil things to me that let me know he was ignorant and was filled with the devil.

[emux]

plastic jesus system of a down download listen then u get my opion of chrismas

[Nokia]

Christmas is a holiday shared and celebrated by many religions.
It is a day that has an effect on the entire world.

To many people, it is a favorite time of the year involving gift giving, parties and feasting. Christmas is a holiday that unifies almost all of professing Christendom.

The spirit of Christmas causes people to decorate their homes and churches, cut down trees and bring them into their homes, decking them with silver and gold.

In the light of that tree, families make merry and give gifts one to another.

When the sun goes down on December 24th, and darkness covers the land, families and churches prepare for participation in customs such as burning the yule log, singing around the decorated tree, kissing under the mistletoe and holly, and attending a late night service or midnight mass.

What is the meaning of Christmas? Where did the customs and traditions originate?

You, as a Christian, would want to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth, discerning good from evil.

The truth is that all of the customs of Christmas pre-date the birth of Jesus Christ, and a study of this would reveal that
Christmas in our day is a collection of traditions and practices taken from many cultures and nations.

The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god.

This was done long before the birth of Jesus.

It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died.

These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun.

Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing daylight.

This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession.

In Germany, the evergreen tree was used in worship and celebration of the yule god, also in observance of the resurrected sun god.

The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship.

Witches and other pagans regarded the red holly as a symbol of the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana.

The holly wood was used by witches to make wands.

The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to represent droplets of the semen of the sun god.

Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter them.

These customs transcended the borders of Rome and Germany to the far reaches of the known world.

The question now arises: How did all of these customs find their way into contemporary Christianity, ranging from Catholicism to Protestantism to fundamentalist churches?

The word "Christmas"itself reveals who married paganism to Christianity.

The word "Christmas" is a combination of the words "Christ" and "Mass.

The word "Mass" means death and was coined originally by the Roman Catholic Church, and belongs exclusively to the church of Rome.

The ritual of the Mass involves the death of Christ, and the distribution of the "Host", a word taken from the Latin word "hostiall" meaning victim!

In short, Christmas is strictly a Roman Catholic word.

A simple study of the tactics of the Romish Church reveals that in every case, the church absorbed the customs, traditions and general paganism of every tribe, culture and nation in their efforts to increase the number of people under their control.

In short, the Romish church told all of these pagan cultures, "Bring your gods, goddesses, rituals and rites, and we will assign Christian sounding titles and names to them.

When Martin Luther started the reformation on October 31st, 1517, and other reformers followed his lead, all of them took with them the paganism that was so firmly imbedded in Rome.

These reformers left Christmas intact.

In England, as the authorized Bible became available to the common people by the decree of King James the II in 1611, people began to discover the pagan roots of Christmas, which are clearly revealed in Scripture.

The Puritans in England, and later in Massachusetts Colony, outlawed this holiday as witchcraft.

Near the end of the nineteenth century, when other Bible versions began to appear, there was a revival of the celebration of Christmas.

We are now seeing ever-increasing celebrating of Christmas or Yule, its true name, as we draw closer to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ!

In both witchcraft circles and contemporary Christian churches, the same things are going on.

As the Bible clearly states in Jeremiah 10:2-4, "Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen; and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven. For the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cutteth a tree out of the forest. The work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold. They fasten it with nails and with hammers that it move not."

So, what is wrong with Christmas?

1. To say that Jesus was born on December 25th is a lie! The true date is sometime in September according to the Scriptures.

2. Trees, wreaths, holly, mistletoe and the like are strictly forbidden as pagan and heathen! To say that these are Christian or that they can be made Christian is a lie!

3. The Lord never spoke of commemorating his birth but rather commanded us to remember the sacrifice of His suffering and death, which purchased our salvation.

Think about it! Can we worship and honor God by involving ourselves with customs and traditions, which God Himself forbade as idolatry? Can we convince God to somehow "Christianize" these customs and the whole pretense and lie of Christmas, so we can enjoy ourselves? Can we obey through disobedience?

[Liquid Bunny]

yea u kno Noki i was watching this documentary on this topic funny enough the other day. i would love to get a copy of it for Xeno. I cant look @ Christmasy stuff the same anymore...

[easyskanka]

:icon_arro Nokia. You are re-iterating a subject already gone into at great detail and length, for our benefit by Xeno.You do however bring your own angle which is no less valuable because it arrives at the same conclusion.That is, Christmas is popular but that in itself, doesn't make it right.:eusa_clap