Perfection?

[Xenocrates]

Did God really create a perfect universe? Is that what the Bible meant when it used the word "perfect"?

If he did, how come we have so much imperfection to deal with on a daily basis?

Discuss.

[Chicokid]

I believe God created the perfect universe but with the advent of Lucifer being kicked out of heaven lead to imperfect happening in the world.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

What is "perfect"?

Dictionary.com says:

# Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
# Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
# Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
# Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
#

1. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
2. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.

# Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
# Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
# Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.

Genesis 1:31 KJV


31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I think God did create a perfect Universe. Everything He created, He created without flaw or fault, and all functioned according to His intention. His intention for sentient beings, was for them to have free will, and chose to love Him, and live according to His word, which is to the benefit of all. When sin, the transgression of God's word, came about as a result of the choice of a created being, Lucifer, corruption of God's perfect creations began. Man was created perfect. Perfect doesn't mean "Godlike" but instead, without fault or flaw, or sin. When man chose to sin, and go against God's word, he became corrupted, and fault and flaw was found in him.

[Xenocrates]

But wait a minute, two things are conflicting here:

If God created the Arch Angel Lucifer perfect, why would he have gone against God?

Secondly, if indeed the universe was perfect, how is it possible that sin manifested itself at all? Isn't it fair to say that the capacity of a mind to sin is not perfect in the literal sense that you mean it? For according the definition of perfect that you wish to adhere to, the capacity to sin would not be a perfect characteristic, now would it?

Or does it mean perfect in the sense that God intended sin to occur?

[Malloc-X]

if god made the world perfect then lucifer couldn't corrupt it. maybe god's definition of pefect is different from ours. or maybe what god sees as perfect is a world with good and evil. so then a world filled with only good would be inperfect and vice versa.

xeno why do u ask questions u already know the answers to hmm if we come to the conclusion ourselves then ......

[Chicokid]

If God created the Arch Angel Lucifer perfect, why would he have gone against God?

That is a question in which most people don't have an explanation for :eusa_wall

[ramesh]

God created the Universe with imperfections deliberately. If it were all perfect, there would be no life, God would get bored to death.



31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


See, the Bible says "very good". It never mentions "perfect".

[BlackCryptoKnight]

But wait a minute, two things are conflicting here:

If God created the Arch Angel Lucifer perfect, why would he have gone against God?

It was God's intention that sentient beings have the ability to chose. Lucifer got greedy, so He chose to go against God, to be like God. Why? I dunno. Does his rebellion contradict the thinking that God's creations were created perfect? I don't think so.


Secondly, if indeed the universe was perfect, how is it possible that sin manifested itself at all? Isn't it fair to say that the capacity of a mind to sin is not perfect in the literal sense that you mean it? For according the definition of perfect that you wish to adhere to, the capacity to sin would not be a perfect characteristic, now would it?

The capacity to sin, is simply the capacity to chose not to follow God's ways. If sentient beings were intended by God to have the capacity to chose, then having the capacity to sin in and of itself is not imperfection. That capacity was there by design. If God did not design us with the ability to chose Him, or our own way, then we would have simply been mindless automatons. Robots incapable of thinking for ourselves.



Or does it mean perfect in the sense that God intended sin to occur?

There's a difference between God intending for sentient beings to have free will, and the ability to chose to sin or not to sin, and God having intended for sin to occur. I don't believe God intended sin to come about. He doesn't want anyone to sin and be separated from Him. But He want's us to chose to be with Him, rather than Him forcing us to be with Him.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

God created the Universe with imperfections deliberately. If it were all perfect, there would be no life, God would get bored to death.
How does it follow that if all creation was perfect, then there would be no life?



See, the Bible says "very good". It never mentions "perfect".
I take that when God says "good" He means "perfect", just the way He intended it to be, complete. If it were not, He would not have said it was good. I think God's standard for good and bad is a lot less subjective than what many think. To Him, sin is sin. There is no degree or shade. If you have transgressed one law, it's just as if you've transgressed all of them.

James 2:10-11, NIV.
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, ‘Do not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

So if He calls something good, it's perfect. Otherwise, something's wrong with it.

[Bahama Mama]

See, the Bible says "very good". It never mentions "perfect".



Does the word 'perfect' even appear anywhere in the bible? I think if God has some concept of 'perfect', we humans may not be capable of deciphering it fully. We are too influenced by our own personal ideas of perfection and those that are driven by society, and we simply dont have the mental capacity to decipher perfection according to that of the creator.


I think in order for their to be some concept of 'perfection', there has to be coupled to that some concept of what is 'imperfect'. That wasnt the case in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were void of any such knowledge to even make a comparison and develop said concepts. When sin entered the equation, man developed this concept of 'perfect', in a damaging attempt I believe to challenge the creator and that which he ordained as being 'good'.

[AngelsKiss]

Does the word 'perfect' even appear anywhere in the bible?

Yep the world perfect is in the bible, in fact several times. eg:

Genesis 6:9 - These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

2 Samuel 22:31 - As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

1 Kings 8:61 - Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 - Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Those are just a few.

[icuucme]

Everything that is, is God's perfect plan

[AngelsKiss]

Everything that is, is God's perfect plan
Ok but why do you think so?

[AngelsKiss]

Here are my questions:

1) Can you be good and not perfect?
2) What exactly is perfection?
3) What did God mean by perfection?
4) As BM pointed out, is our definition of the word perfect the same as our creator?

I ask because to me, if we were made perfect then we wouldn't sin. It would mean that we would not have weaknesses to cause us to sin.

Yes I am aware that God gave us free reign to choose. However, no matter how good we are as a people we are going to sin and I think that is because we are not perfect. To me perfection would mean not having any weaknesses thereby no propensity to sin.

I think you can be good without being perfect.

[ramesh]

A person can be good, but not perfect. In fact there is no such thing as a perfect person - ask the females here (no perfect man). ;)

In other words, perhaps he intentionally made the Earth good but not perfect..

[easyskanka]

deja vu me thinks. I'm quite sure we've been here before. Stil nothing wrong with visiting a worthwhile subject yet again. At birth a child can be described as being perfect, if everything functions the way it should.

Perfection where man is concerned is subjective. In the case of the true God,it is objective. Why is it that on some issues we need Christ himself within our midst before we will accept some things the way they actually are.

This debate is akin to debating the relevence of christmas celebration and of it's validity in relation to christianity. No matter what factual evidence can be presented,those who wish to continue to celebrate it will find a way to justify it in their own way. Some things make the spirit weary and is very much like a dog chasing it's own tail. Seldom will the dog get it,but it does provide a distraction for a while.

When God created Adam he gave birth to a perfect being. When Christ came into this world he was the second Adam,perfect just like the first.

John the baptist was as good as an imperfect man could be but he was not perfect, and said as much when he met the Christ. Noah was not perfect but the kjv of the bible translated it thus. Read the original greek or aramaic text to see how things can get lost in translation.

[Xenocrates]

Lucifer got greedy, so He chose to go against God, to be like God.

- He got greedy? Just like that? Out of the blue? C'mon. That greediness must have been inside Lucifer from the start. How can greediness manifest itself out of the blue, if he was indeed a perfect being?


Why? I dunno.

- I think you do know. Puzzle it for a second: If we were all perfect in the true and literal sense in the beginning (devoid of any imperfections in every conceivable way), then how is it possible that we have the capacity to induce imperfection through sin? Wouldn't it be fair to say, that even though from a physical perspective, we may have been perfect, from a design perspective, we were not?

Ok, lemme put this simply:

If we were designed to be perfectly thinking creatures, could we have sinned in the first place? Why would God give us a choice if all of us were going to make the right one?

Aaaaaah! ;)


Does his rebellion contradict the thinking that God's creations were created perfect? I don't think so.

- Logical fallacy: If something is created perfect, it shouldn't have the capacity to behave imperfectly, since that would mean that it was imperfect from the start.


The capacity to sin, is simply the capacity to chose not to follow God's ways.

- Ok! So we can "choose" to sin! Then it is fair to deduce, from your argument, that God indeed didn't create us perfectly. He may have created us with physical (read: mechanical, physiological) perfection - but in terms of our mind, we were designed, deliberately, with the capacity to sin! You said it yourself! :eusa_clap

Therefore, by extension of your arguments BCK, if God created us with the capacity to sin, he must have intended that sin should have been a part of the equation from the get go! Ofcourse! How could he not? If God didn't want man to sin, he would not have designed him with the capacity to choose in the first place! ;)


There's a difference between God intending for sentient beings to have free will, and the ability to chose to sin or not to sin, and God having intended for sin to occur

- Oh Really? I bet you can't prove it. :p


I don't believe God intended sin to come about. He doesn't want anyone to sin and be separated from Him.

- But doesn't giving us a "choice" mean that some of us will make the wrong one? Are you saying that God wasn't fully aware of the fact that some people would choose to sin against him and thus become separated? Aren't you forgetting that he was the one who designed it that way? ;)

Why would God, in all his wisdom, design something which serves no purpose?

Take Hell for example. Why would God create Hell, of all things, if he didn't intend to put something (or someone) in it?

Heck, I'm going to bake your noodles: Why would God cast satan down to earth, full knowing well that man had no knowledge of good or evil, and that satan was far more intelligent and knowledgeable than mankind?

Isn't that the same thing as tossing a man who's never seen a lion before into a lion's den?

Tricky one, that is. :icon_mrgr

[Xenocrates]

Here are some excellent questions, BCK:


1) Can you be good and not perfect?

- Absolutely! If perfection were a requirement for heaven, none of us would make it.


2) What exactly is perfection?

- Now this is the 64 million dollar question! In the context of this discussion, we understand perfection to mean "completely devoid of any characteristic that would produce an undesirable result".

The problem with this definition is that it is completely subjective. In other words, I might think something is perfect while another person does not. So even on a cosmic scale of intelligent design, perfection would mean one thing to God, and something completely different to mankind. That brings us to the 128 million dollar question:


3) What did God mean by perfection?

- Quite simply: Deliberate, intentional, willful design.

We must assume that God is perfect - since that is where all emanation stops. Therefore, by our measure of perfection, God's universe is imperfect, since, by the definition with which we might choose to understand it, not everything in this universe he has created, produces a desirable result for us...

HOWEVER...

It does produce a desirable result for God. Or does it? I've just opened a can of worms here...

I can sense BCK itching to tackle me on this one, so I'm going to stop here and let everyone toss in their two cents before I say anything more. :icon_mrgr


4) As BM pointed out, is our definition of the word perfect the same as our creator?

- Ding, Ding, Ding!


...no matter how good we are as a people we are going to sin and I think that is because we are not perfect. To me perfection would mean not having any weaknesses thereby no propensity to sin.

- Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! :eusa_clap

Gentlepeople, we have a winner! Johnny, tell 'er what she's won!

Awaiting your responses.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- He got greedy? Just like that? Out of the blue? C'mon. That greediness must have been inside Lucifer from the start. How can greediness manifest itself out of the blue, if he was indeed a perfect being?
I guess my concept of a perfect being doesn't rule out the capacity to be greedy. It's a choice. Part of the perfection is the ability to make that choice. The consequence of the choice made is what can corrupt the perfect and make it imperfect. So the way I see it, part of the perfect design was the ability to make that choice.



- I think you do know. Puzzle it for a second: If we were all perfect in the true and literal sense in the beginning (devoid of any imperfections in every conceivable way), then how is it possible that we have the capacity to induce imperfection through sin? Wouldn't it be fair to say, that even though from a physical perspective, we may have been perfect, from a design perspective, we were not?

Ok, lemme put this simply:

If we were designed to be perfectly thinking creatures, could we have sinned in the first place? Why would God give us a choice if all of us were going to make the right one?
You give me way to much credit. I genuine dunno for sure.:eusa_thin

God would give us a choice even if all of us were going to make the right one, because He loved us, and love does not involve force. I see the ability to chose as a gift of love from God. He could have just made us beings without will of our own, and make us do what He wanted. There would be no love there. We wouldn't love God of our own will. We'd have to love Him, which isn't really true love.



- Logical fallacy: If something is created perfect, it shouldn't have the capacity to behave imperfectly, since that would mean that it was imperfect from the start.
By your logic. I don't believe this is God's logic though. Since the ability to chose is part of His design which He deemed perfect at creation. God Himself has the choice to do anything He wants - good or bad, and He's perfect.


- Ok! So we can "choose" to sin! Then it is fair to deduce, from your argument, that God indeed didn't create us perfectly. He may have created us with physical (read: mechanical, physiological) perfection - but in terms of our mind, we were designed, deliberately, with the capacity to sin! You said it yourself! :eusa_clap

Therefore, by extension of your arguments BCK, if God created us with the capacity to sin, he must have intended that sin should have been a part of the equation from the get go! Ofcourse! How could he not? If God didn't want man to sin, he would not have designed him with the capacity to choose in the first place!

When in Genesis 1, it says "Let us create man in our own image", part of that image, is free will, and the ability to make choices. God granting us the ability to chose whether or not to sin doesn't mean God intended for us to sin. He wants us to chose His way, but won't force it on us. He doesn't want us to sin, but He won't force us to follow His law.

You know how many martial arts masters will tell you that if you have to fight, then you have already lost? They train to kill, yet they don't want to? They hone their fighting skills yet avoid confrontation? What they do is equip themselves with an option. They don't necessarily intend to excercise it.

Having an option doesn't necessitate that it will be excercised, or there is intent to excercise it.


- Oh Really? I bet you can't prove it. :p None of us can prove anything bro...ultimately, we'll just have to ask the Big Guy when He grants us audience, and let Him explain it to us ;)


- But doesn't giving us a "choice" mean that some of us will make the wrong one?
It may very well mean that.


Are you saying that God wasn't fully aware of the fact that some people would choose to sin against him and thus become separated?
I never said that.

Aren't you forgetting that he was the one who designed it that way? ;)
Nopes, didn't forget.


Why would God, in all his wisdom, design something which serves no purpose?

Take Hell for example. Why would God create Hell, of all things, if he didn't intend to put something (or someone) in it?

Think we might be getting into some other territory here, but I personally don't believe that "Hell" is a place of eternal torment as many do. I think it's an event, as described towards the end of Revelations, when the wicked are consumed (burned up until there's nothing left) by fire. If you look at it that way, then it's not a case of God creating Hell and then engineering wicked people to put in it, it's God bringing about "Hellfire" to terminate the sin problem.

So, no, I don't think God creates things that serve no purpose.


Heck, I'm going to bake your noodles: Why would God cast satan down to earth, full knowing well that man had no knowledge of good or evil, and that satan was far more intelligent and knowledgeable than mankind?

Isn't that the same thing as tossing a man who's never seen a lion before into a lion's den?

Tricky one, that is. :icon_mrgr

I guess God wanted to show that people would chose Him over sin, and that He doesn't have to force His will on anyone for them to love Him.

God's on trail, Satan's the accuser and we're the witnesses...

[Xenocrates]

Fair enough good sir. It would seem as though we're on the same page.

I only have one contention:


Having an option doesn't necessitate that it will be excercised, or there is intent to excercise it.

- True. But having an option implies the inevitability of someone moving to the dark side. Not every element who has a choice will necessarily take the long & broad, but somebody will. This is why I say, that the design of good and evil was intentional. God deliberately designed the universe that way, hence Isaiah 45:7.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Absolutely! If perfection were a requirement for heaven, none of us would make it.
The fact that Jesus has to intercede on our behalf, and cover our imperfection with His sinless perfection, indicates that yes, perfection is a requirement to get into Heaven, and yes, in and of ourselves, we wouldn't have a snowballs chance in ... well we couldn't make it on our own.

[Xenocrates]

I'm inclined to concur. :cool:

[AngelsKiss]

BCK...the problem I have with your theory on choice is this, no matter how perfect we think we are we are going to sin even though we have a choice. Why? Because no matter how good a person is (and I can't use the word perfect) that person will sin at some point simply because the person isn't perfect.

We sin not just with our deeds but our thoughts as well and often we our thoughts just pop into our heads and we sinw without realising it. Where our gifts comes in is that we can ask for forgiveness.

To me perfection as it relates to God isn't relative, it's either someone is perfect (as in the case of Christ who never ever sinned) or we are not perfect but can be good as in the case with humankind.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

We could look at perfection as the state of being without sin.

Sin is the transgression of God's law - I John 5:17

If there's no law, there's no sin - there's nothing to break. So I guess by creating the law, and giving sentient beings the ability to chose to obey it or not, there is as a byproduct, the potential for sin -the result of a choice to go against the law. Sin only actually materialized when the first sentient being to go against the law, did so. When Lucifer went against God, he created the first sin.

So with that in mind, I think it's quite plausible to think that God made the universe perfect - without sin. As to why we have to deal with imperfection now, that's directly because of sin - chosing to go against God's perfect law.

[ramesh]

So then Lucifer was not created perfectly?

[AngelsKiss]

If He created the universe perfect, Lucifer shouldn't have had the ability to sin and that's where I am having a problem with the theory, choice or no choice. He should have been able to withstand doing something wrong, which tells me that there is a weakness there.

In other words all am saying is that we should be so strong or perfect that we don't have to sin if we choose not to. However too often we sin without even realising that we did.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

BCK...the problem I have with your theory on choice is this, no matter how perfect we think we are we are going to sin even though we have a choice. Why? Because no matter how good a person is (and I can't use the word perfect) that person will sin at some point simply because the person isn't perfect.

We sin not just with our deeds but our thoughts as well and often we our thoughts just pop into our heads and we sinw without realising it. Where our gifts comes in is that we can ask for forgiveness.

To me perfection as it relates to God isn't relative, it's either someone is perfect (as in the case of Christ who never ever sinned) or we are not perfect but can be good as in the case with humankind.
Remember AK, what I said was that all God's creations were created perfect -without sin. Creation became corrupted when sin materialized as a result of Lucifer chosing to go against God, and later Eve and Adam chosing to disobey God.

We certainly aren't perfect today, as you have said. But in the beginning, mankind was perfect, as were all of God's creations. You are right about the gift of forgiveness. If it wasn't for God's love and willingness to forgive, we'd be doomed because the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23. Not physical death in this world, but spiritual death - eternal separation from God. That's why Jesus sacrifice is so significant. He paid that debt for us, so we are no longer under the penalty of the law regarding the punishment for sin. We can have salvation through Jesus. His sinless perfection covers our sinful imperfection, and through Him we can reach to Heaven.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

So then Lucifer was not created perfectly?
He was created perfect, as all God's creations were created perfect and without sin.

[ramesh]

But you're still missing the point: If we were created perfect, we would not have had the imperfection of being able to sin. I think creation was good, but not perfect. If it was perfect, it would be boring!

[AngelsKiss]

I think we were created good, but not perfect and even though we were created good, because we are imperfect we have the ability to sin.

[Xenocrates]

Y'know, I genuinely thought BCK understood me. :eusa_thin

[BlackCryptoKnight]

If He created the universe perfect, Lucifer shouldn't have had the ability to sin and that's where I am having a problem with the theory, choice or no choice. He should have been able to withstand doing something wrong, which tells me that there is a weakness there.
Him having the ability to chose isn't a weakness. Him making the wrong choice is the problem.


In other words all am saying is that we should be so strong or perfect that we don't have to sin if we choose not to.
Maybe it is that way :

James 4:7 NIV

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

But you're still missing the point: If we were created perfect, we would not have had the imperfection of being able to sin. I think creation was good, but not perfect. If it was perfect, it would be boring!
Ram, I get your point, but I don't agree. I don't consider the ability to chose as an imperfection. I see making the wrong choice as the cause of the imperfection.

[AngelsKiss]

Him having the ability to chose isn't a weakness. Him making the wrong choice is the problem.


Maybe it is that way :

James 4:7 NIV
But that's the problem BCK...no matter how hard I submit myself to God or how much I pray I still end up sinning and it not really because I want to. It's because of my weaknesses as a human being. If I could I would never sin. I don't want to sin so where does that leave me but an imperfect human being.

[Xenocrates]

Ram, I get your point, but I don't agree. I don't consider the ability to chose as an imperfection. I see making the wrong choice as the cause of the imperfection.

- So what causes "making the wrong choice"?

[easyskanka]

But you're still missing the point: If we were created perfect, we would not have had the imperfection of being able to sin. I think creation was good, but not perfect. If it was perfect, it would be boring!

Saying it would be boring is solely from a perspective of imperfection. If your mindset was looking at life in harmony with your creator (as in he is the originator of our existence), then your outlook would be different.

I might be wrong, so apologies in advance, you strike me as a resistor to the concept of an Almighty Creator. So on one level any point made with reference by you,in relation to God is a moot one. Am I evaluating you wrong Ramesh?

[ramesh]

I might be wrong, so apologies in advance, you strike me as a resistor to the concept of an Almighty Creator. So on one level any point made with reference by you,in relation to God is a moot one. Am I evaluating you wrong Ramesh? Not totally, easyskanka. I am not totally resistant to the idea of a Creator of any kind, I am extremely open-minded. I am open to all options. ;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- So what causes "making the wrong choice"?
The will of the individual to make the "wrong choice".

We have free will. No one, or nothing can make our choices for us. We chose of our own free will.

[easyskanka]

Not totally, easyskanka. I am not totally resistant to the idea of a Creator of any kind, I am extremely open-minded. I am open to all options. ;)


Jesus said that a man cannot serve two masters. He'll most likely end up loving one and hating the other. Put another way, if we have a foot in two camps,we could end up with more than a torn crotch.

We are probably all hypocrites to a more or less degree,this is why it is not left to us to judge each other.But we are allowed to help those who require or need genuine help.:D

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Jesus said that a man cannot serve two masters. He'll most likely end up loving one and hating the other. Put another way, if we have a foot in two camps,we could end up with more than a torn crotch.

We are probably all hypocrites to a more or less degree,this is why it is not left to us to judge each other.But we are allowed to help those who require or need genuine help.:D

One man's "help" is another man's "self-righteousness" and "judgementalism". :eusa_whis

[Xenocrates]

We chose of our own free will.

- :icon_mrgr Granted that we have free will, why didn't God, who must've foreknown that Satan was going to go berserk, just pre-emptively stop him?

[AngelsKiss]

The will of the individual to make the "wrong choice".

We have free will. No one, or nothing can make our choices for us. We chose of our own free will.

You keep saying that BCK and I agree we have free will to a certain degree (remember the Egyptians and how God harden their hearts?). However, the point you are missing is that even with free will, no matter how good a person tries to be they won't ever be 100% perfect. It's simply in our nature to sin and sometimes we sin and don't even realise it.

I still say that God made us good but not perfect else if we so choose many of us would never sinned.

The only perfect man to ever walk the earth is Christ.

[nester-san]

Off topic, why did God Harden hearts of egyptians ?
If they were doing what was wanted, was he just punishing them ?

Or was it just written that God hardened there hearts since if they recanted after first plague, it would have seemed mean spirited to hit them with other plagues ?

[Cocoa]

What is "perfect"?

Dictionary.com says:


Genesis 1:31 KJV


I think God did create a perfect Universe. Everything He created, He created without flaw or fault, and all functioned according to His intention. His intention for sentient beings, was for them to have free will, and chose to love Him, and live according to His word, which is to the benefit of all. When sin, the transgression of God's word, came about as a result of the choice of a created being, Lucifer, corruption of God's perfect creations began. Man was created perfect. Perfect doesn't mean "Godlike" but instead, without fault or flaw, or sin. When man chose to sin, and go against God's word, he became corrupted, and fault and flaw was found in him.I agree with this.:eusa_danc

[AngelsKiss]

I agree with this.:eusa_danc
Ok since you agree here is my question to you and BCK:

Is either you capable of going thru life without ever committing a sin?

See if man was created perfect, choice or no choice he would not have sinned. He wouldn't have wanted or felt the urge to sin, because he would have been perfect.

[Cocoa]

Ok since you agree here is my question to you and BCK:

Is either you capable of going thru life without ever committing a sin?

See if man was created perfect, choice or no choice he would not have sinned. He wouldn't have wanted or felt the urge to sin, because he would have been perfect.
NAWWWWWWWW cause one fall made it impossible for us. However, we can be more like Jesus with matters of your heart, and TRY not to sin and if you do, repent, cause we were born in sin and shapened in iniquity.

[easyskanka]

- :icon_mrgr Granted that we have free will, why didn't God, who must've foreknown that Satan was going to go berserk, just pre-emptively stop him?

Because that would have in effect made free will null and void.

[Bahama Mama]

Perfection does not leave room for error. Perfect beings would not be equipped with something like choice, that inherently has an 'error factor'.

[easyskanka]

Perfection does not leave room for error. Perfect beings would not be equipped with something like choice, that inherently has an 'error factor'.

I think you might be referring more to a programmed being,rather than someone with freedom of choice BM.

[Bahama Mama]

I think you might be referring more to a programmed being,rather than someone with freedom of choice BM.


Its not my intent to artificialize human beings. However we did not create ourselves. Freedom of choice was not of our own doing, but that of the one that created us. By being equipped with choice or free will, human beings were not created as perfect infallible beings.

[easyskanka]

Its not my intent to artificialize human beings. However we did not create ourselves. Freedom of choice was not of our own doing, but that of the one that created us. By being equipped with choice or free will, human beings were not created as perfect infallible beings.

I think you might find that infallibility and perfection are subtly different:D Anyway faith has much to do with these types of issues.Either you place your trust in the true God,or you run the risk of harbouring potential sympathy for those who oppose his wisdom

infallible adj.1. incapable of making a mistake or being wrong.2.never failing,an infallible remedy. infallibly adv.

perfect adj. 1.complete,having all it's essential qualities.2.faultless,excellent.3 exact,precise,a perfect circle.4.entire.total,a perfect stranger.

[ramesh]

To be perfect, you'd still have to be infallible. Otherwise you're not perfect. :)

[nester-san]

Because that would have in effect made free will null and void.


That seems to imply that without the devil there would have been no free will.

Which would have meant that there really is no "free will", since an agent of God (DEVIL) would have been what created free will in us.

Doesn't compute....

I think the "devil" was just there for major opposition, since free will is as basic as should i have grapes or apples for breakfast.

Maybe the purpose of the devil was to set in place the progression of man from fig leaf wearer to Starship Captain.

Sorta like a nudger to majorly change human progress and direction where needed.

War and death have always been catalysts of change. People respond more to man's inhumanity to man than they do to God's (natural disasters, etc)

There is always a kinda leap forward in thinking and progress after a huge man made disaster.

Maybe that is the true role of the Devil, since I think, even though people will disagree, the majority of people are pretty decent if the basic needs: food, shelter, love are met.

[Bahama Mama]

Infallability is essential for perfection as I see it. You cant be perfect and yet prone to error, or mistake, or sin.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Ok since you agree here is my question to you and BCK:

Is either you capable of going thru life without ever committing a sin?
No, I can't on my own.


See if man was created perfect, choice or no choice he would not have sinned. He wouldn't have wanted or felt the urge to sin, because he would have been perfect.
No AK. If you say that having free will = imperfection, then God is imperfect, because God has free will. Being tempted does not equal sin. Yielding to temptation leads to sin. Having the urge to sin, isn't the same as having free will to chose.

If God had made sentient beings without free will, then we would be no more than robots, and God would be no more than a dictator - which is what the devil accuses Him of being.

When you love someone, do you force them to do what you want? No. You let them make their choices. You may try to persuade and convince them, but you don't force them. If they love you, then they do what they can to make you happy - of their own free will.

[nester-san]

Ok then, but if they choose not to either love you back, or go according to your instructions. btw those are two VERY different things.

Is the eternal damnation in hellfire and torment and suffering, which a lot of people say happens, the reaction of a just and loving God ?

Doesn't choice also give us the right not to adoringly worship?

What happens to all those people who live pretty decent lives (buddist monks, for example who who not even pick living fruit off trees because of how valuable they hold life), but do not believe in a Western God ?

[ramesh]

If God had made sentient beings without free will, then we would be no more than robots, and God would be no more than a dictator - which is what the devil accuses Him of being. That's why God inserted that imperfection, otherwise we would be robots chanting "Glory" every second (as to why God would need anyone to glorify him every minute, that's another thread!). If there was no imperfection, we would not be here.

[Xenocrates]

No AK. If you say that having free will = imperfection, then God is imperfect, because God has free will.

- Minor Correction: Only God has free will, we humans are still robots either way. I don't think you guys understand the definition of free will, for to have the capacity to have truly "free" will, our "options" would be limitless - or at the very least, not bound by the parameters of finiteness.

God can choose to wipe the slate clean and start all over again, just on a complete whim, because he felt bored, etc. We on the other hand can only make choices based on external influences. We have no control over those influences, therefore our "choices" are just reactions - effects - of those external influences. If humans had the capacity to create their own choices, then that would be the definition of free will.

What are our "choices"?

We have to choose to either Follow God and Live or Follow the Devil and Die. Then, to complete the equation, God created humans with an innate capacity for self-preservation. That's where the "illusion" of choice materializes. We don't "choose" to follow God for purely random reasons. That "choice" is nothing more than a pre-programmed reaction to a specific event.

Therefore, by our own natural programming, we would choose to follow God and live. We're not "choosing" there. We're merely fulfilling a logical sequence of predetermined set of instructions hard coded into our psyche. I could elaborate more on this, but we already have in another thread (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1665&highlight=Fate) - from which your comments are strangely missing... :eusa_thin


Being tempted does not equal sin. Yielding to temptation leads to sin. Having the urge to sin, isn't the same as having free will to chose.

- So you're saying that if a product has the capacity to fail, then it is only imperfect once it fails, but not before then? Clearly there's something fundamentally flawed with that logic. Perfection implies lacking any capacity for failure. Ask yourself these simple questions:

If your SUV had the capacity to roll over when taking sharp corners, is it perfect until it rolls over?

If it has the capacity to explode if it met into a serious accident, is it perfect until it explodes?

If you are allergic to say... aspirin... are you physiologically perfect until you die from ingesting penicillin?

C'mon. It's obvious that kind of logic doesn't fly.


If God had made sentient beings without free will, then we would be no more than robots, and God would be no more than a dictator - which is what the devil accuses Him of being.

- What makes you think we are any more than robots? What makes God any less than a dictator? We were created for God's entertainment.

Don't believe me?

Check it:


God creates lucifer


God allows Lucifer to become evil


God then creates man


God tosses lucifer from heaven to earth, the same place where man was created


God tells man, who knows nothing of Good or Evil, not to eat of the tree, then stands back and allows the devil to waltz in onto the show. The devil is infinitely more intelligent than man, so the outcome is obvious...


Now here's the fun part: God then punishes man for being ignorant of Good and Evil... classic :eusa_clap


Fast forward a few thousand years... God allows Satan to ravish Job ...just to prove a point to Satan.


If that doesn't sound like a dictator to you, then let me know. I'll draw parallels between Him and Saddam Hussein for dramatic effect. :icon_mrgr


When you love someone, do you force them to do what you want? No. You let them make their choices.

- Or better yet, you let them THINK they have a choice.


You may try to persuade and convince them, but you don't force them. If they love you, then they do what they can to make you happy - of their own free will.

- ...and then torch those who don't. That sounds like a brilliant plan to me. Torching those who don't will persuade more of them to use "free will" to love you. They will continue to "think" they have a choice, but they do not. Not really - especially when they act out of fear. You think I'm wrong? Then ask yourself this question:

Do you want to go to hell? :rotflm:

Pure Genius, isn't it?

God is truly amazing. :icon_mrgr

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Minor Correction: Only God has free will, we humans are still robots either way. I don't think you guys understand the definition of free will, for to have the capacity to have truly "free" will, our "options" would be limitless - or at the very least, not bound by the parameters of finiteness.
I dont' agree X. Whether our options are 2, or 2,000,000, once they're greater than 1, we have a choice, and that makes us more than robots. Remember, nothing is forcing us to make any choice. Things may influence us, but we still have the ability to chose whatever, regardless.


God can choose to wipe the slate clean and start all over again, just on a complete whim, because he felt bored, etc. We on the other hand can only make choices based on external influences. We have no control over those influences, therefore our "choices" are just reactions - effects - of those external influences. If humans had the capacity to create their own choices, then that would be the definition of free will.

Dictionary.com definitions of "Free Will"

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

We have the ability to chose, and our choice is not predetermined for us. We have free will.



What are our "choices"?

We have to choose to either Follow God and Live or Follow the Devil and Die. Then, to complete the equation, God created humans with an innate capacity for self-preservation. That's where the "illusion" of choice materializes. We don't "choose" to follow God for purely random reasons. That "choice" is nothing more than a pre-programmed reaction to a specific event.

Therefore, by our own natural programming, we would choose to follow God and live. We're not "choosing" there. We're merely fulfilling a logical sequence of predetermined set of instructions hard coded into our psyche. I could elaborate more on this, but we already have in another thread (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1665&highlight=Fate) - from which your comments are strangely missing... :eusa_thin
If we were preprogrammed to chose God, then sin wouldn't have existed. We would be in the state AK wants, where there would be no option but to follow God. Clearly, this isn't the case.



- So you're saying that if a product has the capacity to fail, then it is only imperfect once it fails, but not before then? Clearly there's something fundamentally flawed with that logic. Perfection implies lacking any capacity for failure. Ask yourself these simple questions:

If your SUV had the capacity to roll over when taking sharp corners, is it perfect until it rolls over?

If it has the capacity to explode if it met into a serious accident, is it perfect until it explodes?

If you are allergic to say... aspirin... are you physiologically perfect until you die from ingesting penicillin?

C'mon. It's obvious that kind of logic doesn't fly.

Boss, you can't compare an inanimate object like an SUV, which behaves according to the choices a sentient driver has to make, with a sentient being.
But I'll humour you...

If the SUV functioned according to it's design, and was without any impediment to its function, and it behaved according to its makers "commands" then yes, it's perfect. If it crashed, and thus no longer behaved according to its makers "commands", and is no longer complete, then yes, it has now become "imperfect".

If the intent of physical perfection was that the body would not be vulnerable to allergens, then the existence of an allergy would constitute the body behaving contrary to the design of the creator, and thus be in imperfection. My point is that in the beginning, EVERYTHING, functioned according to the intent of the Creator and was perfect. Susbsequent to sin, things got corrupted physically, and spirirtually, and became imperfect.


- What makes you think we are any more than robots? What makes God any less than a dictator? We were created for God's entertainment.

Don't believe me?

Check it:


God creates lucifer


God allows Lucifer to become evil


God then creates man


God tosses lucifer from heaven to earth, the same place where man was created


God tells man, who knows nothing of Good or Evil, not to eat of the tree, then stands back and allows the devil to waltz in onto the show. The devil is infinitely more intelligent than man, so the outcome is obvious...


Now here's the fun part: God then punishes man for being ignorant of Good and Evil... classic :eusa_clap


Fast forward a few thousand years... God allows Satan to ravish Job ...just to prove a point to Satan.


If that doesn't sound like a dictator to you, then let me know. I'll draw parallels between Him and Saddam Hussein for dramatic effect. :icon_mrgr



- Or better yet, you let them THINK they have a choice.



- ...and then torch those who don't. That sounds like a brilliant plan to me. Torching those who don't will persuade more of them to use "free will" to love you. They will continue to "think" they have a choice, but they do not. Not really - especially when they act out of fear. You think I'm wrong? Then ask yourself this question:

Do you want to go to hell? :rotflm:

Pure Genius, isn't it?

God is truly amazing. :icon_mrgr

Wow, and you're a Christian? :eusa_thin

I look at it like this, God didn't have to create life, yet He decided to share it with us out of Love. Since He is the originator of life, no life can exist without Him. He gives us free will to chose to live with Him, or be separated from Him. Since no life exists without Him, separation from Him means the termination of life. So yes, quite literally, He offers us the choice of life or death - not because He is cruel, or dictatorial, but simply because, to truly be alive, is to be with Him.

Had God been a dictator, there would never be these kinds of discussions about whether we have a choice or not. We wouldn't have the idea to even debate this. There would be no debating. We'd be mindlessly doing whatever it is God would have programmed us to do. But we're here forming our opinions and chosing to defend them.

People make the choice to go against God every day. Those who know what God is about, still chose their own way. Had God been a dictator, all those who oppose Him would have been terminated the instant they went against Him. Yet, He has allowed us to exist, and provided a plan of salvation for us through the sacrifice of Jesus. Dictators don't behave like that.

[Xenocrates]

Excellent post BCK. :icon_mrgr


I dont' agree X. Whether our options are 2, or 2,000,000, once they're greater than 1, we have a choice, and that makes us more than robots.

- Have you ever studied artificial intelligence and neural networks? Robots can be programmed to "make choices". However, to make a choice, there has to be some influence that is greater than the others. That's where a "choice" manifests itself. If you can create an option for which the influence is greater than the others, you're not giving the chooser a choice. However, the chooser thinks they're making a choice, but they're only reacting to an "option" that you've placed, which you've already programmed them to take. So how is the robot making a choice? It's not. It's reacting, not choosing. But we're drifting off-topic...


Remember, nothing is forcing us to make any choice. Things may influence us, but we still have the ability to chose whatever, regardless.

- Being forced and being influenced differ only in how conspicuously either appears.


If we were preprogrammed to chose God, then sin wouldn't have existed.

- We weren't programmed to choose God. We were programmed to prefer life. God offers life. Therefore, by extension, we would naturally choose life. Not much of a choice there.


Boss, you can't compare an inanimate object like an SUV, which behaves according to the choices a sentient driver has to make, with a sentient being.

- Aah! But I can! An SUV is created. Man is created. Animated or not, both are created. Therefore, they both have the capacity for perfection or imperfection. You merely failed to see the point of the allegory. But I'll humor you:


If the SUV functioned according to it's design, and was without any impediment to its function, and it behaved according to its makers "commands" then yes, it's perfect.

- Ahhh mon kapitan, but you fail to consider something VITAL to all motor vehicle design: SAFETY. If the vehicle isn't safe, it doesn't matter how well it responds to user commands, it's not perfect. That's why motor companies recall vehicles every once in a while. XD

[MORE...]

[Xenocrates]

My point is that in the beginning, EVERYTHING, functioned according to the intent of the Creator and was perfect.

- Even Lucifer? :rotflm:


Susbsequent to sin, things got corrupted physically, and spirirtually, and became imperfect.

- But sin wasn't spawned out of thin air. That's MY point. ;)


Wow, and you're a Christian?

- The requirements of Christianity do not inhibit my capacity for asking tough questions. :eusa_danc


I look at it like this, God didn't have to create life, yet He decided to share it with us out of Love. Since He is the originator of life, no life can exist without Him.

- ...and therefore, by extension, No death can exist with Him either. :p


So yes, quite literally, He offers us the choice of life or death - not because He is cruel, or dictatorial, but simply because, to truly be alive, is to be with Him.

- You realise that this is not saying anything different from what I said earlier... right? :rotflm:


Had God been a dictator, there would never be these kinds of discussions about whether we have a choice or not. We wouldn't have the idea to even debate this.

- Which Dictator is more cruel? The one who exercises his cruelty to the point where we live in ignorant bliss of the fact that we're enslaved, or the one that let's us figure out, or better yet, GIVES us the knowledge to make such a comparison? If we could indeed say that God is "cruel", it would be a limitation of our human understanding. To say that God is "love" is equally limiting. God is God. But that's not the point of this discussion...


People make the choice to go against God every day. Those who know what God is about, still chose their own way.

- Do you remember the story of Job? I don't feel sorry for Job. I feel sorry for his wife - and everyone else like her. Job knew what God was about. He knew what he was up against. His wife clearly didn't. If she had any appreciation for the awesome majesty of WHO God is, then there's no way she'd make the decision she did.


Had God been a dictator, all those who oppose Him would have been terminated the instant they went against Him.

- Whether they're terminated instantly or after a while is irrelevant. They will be terminated. End of Story.


Yet, He has allowed us to exist, and provided a plan of salvation for us through the sacrifice of Jesus. Dictators don't behave like that.

- Are you kidding me? He sacrificed his own Son! The cause was noble - but think about it - did it HAVE to happen that way? Why not arm mankind with enough knowledge about the Devil before putting the devil and man on the same planet? If God had done that, his Son would never have had to undergo what he did. Poor guy. :icon_cry:

[Manu]

Based on your logic BCK....don't Robots have choices too? Even if it is simple Boolean equations that governed which makes them still conditional which is the same thing Xeno is alluding to in the case of humans. Choices are governed by conditions hence they are not really of free will? Is there an alternative explanation? I have no porb with being a robot but just call a spade a spade and get on with it :icon_mrgr

[Xenocrates]

I concur. :rotflm: :icon_mrgr

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Have you ever studied artificial intelligence and neural networks? Robots can be programmed to "make choices". However, to make a choice, there has to be some influence that is greater than the others. That's where a "choice" manifests itself. If you can create an option for which the influence is greater than the others, you're not giving the chooser a choice. However, the chooser thinks they're making a choice, but they're only reacting to an "option" that you've placed, which you've already programmed them to take. So how is the robot making a choice? It's not. It's reacting, not choosing. But we're drifting off-topic...

- Being forced and being influenced differ only in how conspicuously either appears.

Do AI and automaton intentionally make decisions contrary to the logic that is programmed in them? Humans often make illogical decisions.



- We weren't programmed to choose God. We were programmed to prefer life. God offers life. Therefore, by extension, we would naturally choose life. Not much of a choice there.
Explain those who chose death eg. those who commit suicide. See previous point about automaton not making decisions contrary to their programming.
Those who chose death contradict that "programmed preference for life" which you say humans "naturally" would chose.


- Ahhh mon kapitan, but you fail to consider something VITAL to all motor vehicle design: SAFETY. If the vehicle isn't safe, it doesn't matter how well it responds to user commands, it's not perfect. That's why motor companies recall vehicles every once in a while. XD
Sure safety is one of the criteria, and sure, if it didn't adhere to safety standards, it would not be functioning according its intended design. If it was created such that it would not function according to its intended design, then it wasn't perfect. Why I don't think comparing a vehicle with humans is that SUV 1.0 wasn't perfect from the start. Human being 1.0 was perfect in the beginning. SUV 1.0 was made by man after man was corrupted and no longer perfect. Human being 1.0 was made by God, a perfect being.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Even Lucifer? :rotflm:
Yes, Lucifer was created perfect.

Ezekiel 28:13-18 KJV

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


- The requirements of Christianity do not inhibit my capacity for asking tough questions. :eusa_danc
Of course it doesn't. You just ask them so convincingly, that I am curious as to why you still believe. :icon_mrgr



- ...and therefore, by extension, No death can exist with Him either. :p Hmmm...:eusa_thin
If there is no life, then there is death (no existence). If there is no God, there is no life. Therefore, if there is no God, then there is death (no existence).


- Which Dictator is more cruel? The one who exercises his cruelty to the point where we live in ignorant bliss of the fact that we're enslaved, or the one that let's us figure out, or better yet, GIVES us the knowledge to make such a comparison? If we could indeed say that God is "cruel", it would be a limitation of our human understanding. To say that God is "love" is equally limiting. God is God. But that's not the point of this discussion...
Wow, "enslaved", "cruel". Them are strong words indeed.

I think dictators don't allow for much at all. They dictate.


- Do you remember the story of Job? I don't feel sorry for Job. I feel sorry for his wife - and everyone else like her. Job knew what God was about. He knew what he was up against. His wife clearly didn't. If she had any appreciation for the awesome majesty of WHO God is, then there's no way she'd make the decision she did.
Lucifer knew exactly what God was about, yet He made the decision he did. How much knowledge is necessary to do what is right? Should we do what is right because we know the enormity of the situation and the players, or should we do what is right because it is right?


- Whether they're terminated instantly or after a while is irrelevant. They will be terminated. End of Story.
No, there is relevance there, because the delay in termination comes with a chance for redemption. The only reason God has not ended it all yet, is because He is giving people a chance to repent and receive salvation. Had He carried out sentence immediately, all would already be lost.


- Are you kidding me? He sacrificed his own Son! The cause was noble - but think about it - did it HAVE to happen that way? Why not arm mankind with enough knowledge about the Devil before putting the devil and man on the same planet? If God had done that, his Son would never have had to undergo what he did. Poor guy. :icon_cry:
Because we should not need to know everything in order to do the right thing. God's word should be sufficient for us.

Our Creator made us, nurtured us and provided for us. If He said "Don't eat of the fruit of that tree" we should have enough faith in Him to know that He has our best interest at heart. He hadn't given any reason to doubt His sincerity or faithfulness, so His word should have been enough. Knowledge of the devil was irrelevant. That's the crux of the matter. God is sufficient.

[easyskanka]

:icon_arro @ Xeno.I see you are still holding to this erroneous path of claiming that God flung satan down to earth at the time of Adam and Eve. This is just not the case. Even in the time of Job,satan was coming and going from heaven as he pleased.

When the Christ beheld satan fallen as lightening from heaven,he envisaged what was yet to come. Satan had not yet been thrown out of the heavens,so God did not engineer all of these occurrences,he just plays his part as the all knowing God that he is.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Based on your logic BCK....don't Robots have choices too? Even if it is simple Boolean equations that governed which makes them still conditional which is the same thing Xeno is alluding to in the case of humans. Choices are governed by conditions hence they are not really of free will? Is there an alternative explanation? I have no porb with being a robot but just call a spade a spade and get on with it :icon_mrgr
No Manu. Robots "choose" based on set, programmed logic. They aren't capable of making decisions which contradict the logic programmed into them. Humans are capable of making decisions which are illogical.

If you say that we are programmed to chose life, then how is it that people chose suicide? If all life is of God and with God, and His ways are the only ways which asure life eternal, then why do people chose not to follow them, and ultimately chose eternal death? It's illogical. A robot is incapable of making that kind of decision contrary to its programming.

[Manu]

No Manu. Robots "choose" based on set, programmed logic. They aren't capable of making decisions which contradict the logic programmed into them. Humans are capable of making decisions which are illogical.

If you say that we are programmed to chose life, then how is it that people chose suicide? If all life is of God and with God, and His ways are the only ways which asure life eternal, then why do people chose not to follow them, and ultimately chose eternal death? It's illogical. A robot is incapable of making that kind of decision contrary to its programming.

For our thoughts are not His thoughts BCK ;) our choices are only illogical to us but to the Supreme Being...everything is as they ought to be! How else will "prophecy" be fulltilled? (I'm just asking questions as they pop in my mind so forgive me seeming impertinence)

[AngelsKiss]

For our thoughts are not His thoughts BCK ;)
Which is why we are not perfect beings.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

For our thoughts are not His thoughts BCK ;) our choices are only illogical to us but to the Supreme Being...everything is as they ought to be! If that were the case, then everything would be perfect right now, woudn't it?

Right now, things on earth are not the way God wants it to be. He wants us all to accept and love Him, but many of us don't. Many of us choose not to.


How else will "prophecy" be fulltilled? (I'm just asking questions as they pop in my mind so forgive me seeming impertinence)

Even in fulfillment of prophecy, people have a choice to be a part of it or not. If a person God chose to be an instrument of His work choses not to fulfill God's plan for them, God chooses another. It happens every day. All of us have work God plans for us to do in order to fulfill prophecy. Many of us chose not to carry it out.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Which is why we are not perfect beings.
We aren't. Adam and Eve were - until they sinned.

Created beings were created perfect. Even Lucifer.

Ezekiel 28:15 KJV


15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[Xenocrates]

Do AI and automaton intentionally make decisions contrary to the logic that is programmed in them? Humans often make illogical decisions.

- As you already know, the ultimate proof of articificial intelligence is the ability to pass the Turing Test. One of the key components of the Turing test is to check the machine's ability to find a solution for a random problem that it was not programmed to solve. It must articulate and extrapolate from it's most basic programming to solve that problem. But this element is so wide, and so broad, that it's extremely difficult to build AI that can find practical solutions to virtually any problem given to it. It was this premise that led to the development of Decision Support Systems, as you already know.

If a sufficiently coded robot were placed into a room with a ladder leading out of it, and the room was slowly flooded, the robot would pass that element of the Turing test if it could figure out that using the ladder would save it from short circuiting.

I say that to say this:

There is a certain logic that is hard coded in people - logic that naturally allows people to select the option that would bring them the greatest, most immediately realizable good. People who have not realised ALL of the possible options are still going to follow the same lines of logic. Those of us who condemn them as being illogical, fail to realise that people in those dire situations, have not yet realised all of the possible options open to them.

And just to prove my point, let's go back to my example of the robot in the room filling with water:

If the robot's visionary perception is such that it can't make out the ladder against the wall, it's next most natural response would be to protect its circuitry (all AI is hard coded with Self preservation protocols). So the robot would deactivate itself, to prevent corrosive damage from an interaction between the water and live electricity running through its system. If that robot had perceived it had more options available to it, self-deactivation would never have an "option".

The machine is merely reacting to the scenario; appropos:


Explain those who chose death eg. those who commit suicide.

- It's not so much that they didn't opt for life, as it is that they could not perceive a viable option with "life" being a part of it. It is their choice that is flawed to us and only because of their inability to perceive possible alternatives. For them, continuing life was not a viable option - just like that robot in the flooding room.

A human's natural instinct when facing an unpleasant scenario is to opt for relief. It's a primal desire. How it manifests itself in our actions is quite probably irrelevant. If suiciders felt that there was a way that life could be sustained but with a relief from their issue, they would have chosen that route, opting against suicide.

Therefore, it's not that their logic was flawed - it's their sense of perception that was inadequate for the problem they faced. The logic remains the same in all cases.

[Xenocrates]

Why I don't think comparing a vehicle with humans is that SUV 1.0 wasn't perfect from the start. Human being 1.0 was perfect in the beginning. SUV 1.0 was made by man after man was corrupted and no longer perfect. Human being 1.0 was made by God, a perfect being.

- Logical Fallacy: Using your own line of argument, If Humans were created perfect, then the SUV would have been perfect - but since the SUV is not perfect (According to you) then the human which made it could not have been perfect to begin with.

Here's another 64 million dollar question for you (I'm generous aren't I? :icon_mrgr)

Can something that is perfect possess the capacity for imperfection?

Think about this one CAREFULLY before you answer. Yes, it's a trick question. I don't give out 64 mill for easy ones.


I think dictators don't allow for much at all. They dictate.

- God says "Follow me or DIE". Yep. Case closed. :icon_mrgr


Lucifer knew exactly what God was about, yet He made the decision he did.

- Not true. God hardened his heart, in as much as he hardened the hearts of the Egyptians. They saw the wrath of God at work, but God interferred with their "free will" by making them stubborn, just so that he could flex his muscle against them - thereby making any doubters in the children of Israel to be believers. Satan is an archetype that is fulfilling a pre-scripted role. Nobody sits that close to God and defies him, unless God allows it. That's evidence of TRUE CONTROL my friend. You underestimate the true power of God yute. ;)


Should we do what is right because we know the enormity of the situation and the players, or should we do what is right because it is right?

- A Deontologist I see. I knew I'd smoke you out sooner or later. :icon_mrgr

We do what is right as it is dictated by God. Notice I used the word "dictated". There was no democracy on what God thinks is right. He's an autocratic leader. He makes up his mind irrespective of what you and I think. Again, as I said in another thread, "...might is right...". God has the might, therefore, God is always right. So I would definitely say that it boils down to the enormity of the player, not players, since God plays both sides of the chessboard. It doesn't matter what we think is right. Does it?

Wait a minute, that sounds a lot like a dicta... oh nevermind. :p

[Juliet]

Did God really create a perfect universe? Is that what the Bible meant when it used the word "perfect"?

If he did, how come we have so much imperfection to deal with on a daily basis?

Discuss.

First of all, I wouldn't necessarily call what we deal with on a daily basis 'imperfection'. It may not be perfect to you...; and even if there is this so called imperfection, it is man in all his limited wisdom who has made it largely so. It is man who seeks to interfere and alter that which God has perfectly made and we must endure the consequences of doing so.

[Juliet]

How on earth do you people get to write such long responses without having to log in again and again and again...

[Xenocrates]

No, there is relevance there, because the delay in termination comes with a chance for redemption. The only reason God has not ended it all yet, is because He is giving people a chance to repent and receive salvation.

- Not really. The end hasn't come yet because all of the other points of play haven't been completed yet. Time is only a function of men's minds. God has an approximation on everything. It's only because we men are so simple, that we use something as simplisitic as "time" to measure the distance between when God moves. There is no waiting period for God. There is just cause and effect. History is a cosmic domino effect of one thing impacting the eventuality of another. If God hadn't already decided how this is all going to end, there would be no Bible prophecy. Think about it. ;)


Had He carried out sentence immediately, all would already be lost.

- Shakespeare once wrote that "...the world is but a stage, and we're but actors...". He was right on the money. There is no probability with God. There is only absolute inevitability. He hasn't carried out his sentence yet because that part doesn't happen yet in the pre-scripted line of events to occur. Us repenting is irrelevant. It's just part of the scheme of things.


Because we should not need to know everything in order to do the right thing. God's word should be sufficient for us.

- I agree. It's our script. We should follow it and meet our fate in the finale.


Of course it doesn't. You just ask them so convincingly, that I am curious as to why you still believe.

- Do you wish to know the answer to this concern of yours? I can answer it frankly, candidly, truthfully, thoroughly, but only if you genuinely want to know.

[Xenocrates]

How on earth do you people get to write such long responses without having to log in again and again and again...

- When you log in, check the option that says "Remember Me". A cookie will be stored on your machine that allows the website software to "remember" you everytime you come on, hence logging you in automatically. ;)

[AngelsKiss]

How on earth do you people get to write such long responses without having to log in again and again and again...
When you log in select the remember me box and you should be ok, unless you block cookies.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Do you wish to know the answer to this concern of yours? I can answer it frankly, candidly, truthfully, thoroughly, but only if you genuinely want to know.

Sure I do. :icon_mrgr

[BlackCryptoKnight]

There is a certain logic that is hard coded in people - logic that naturally allows people to select the option that would bring them the greatest, most immediately realizable good. People who have not realised ALL of the possible options are still going to follow the same lines of logic. Those of us who condemn them as being illogical, fail to realise that people in those dire situations, have not yet realised all of the possible options open to them.

...


- It's not so much that they didn't opt for life, as it is that they could not perceive a viable option with "life" being a part of it. It is their choice that is flawed to us and only because of their inability to perceive possible alternatives. For them, continuing life was not a viable option - just like that robot in the flooding room.

A human's natural instinct when facing an unpleasant scenario is to opt for relief. It's a primal desire. How it manifests itself in our actions is quite probably irrelevant. If suiciders felt that there was a way that life could be sustained but with a relief from their issue, they would have chosen that route, opting against suicide.

Therefore, it's not that their logic was flawed - it's their sense of perception that was inadequate for the problem they faced. The logic remains the same in all cases.

I thought you said we were hard coded to choose life?

Those who commit suicide are making the choice to give up life. The reason is irrelevant. They value not dealing with an issue over life itself when they decide to kill themselves. Many of them have realized their options, and they take the decision that they would rather die, than deal with something. It's not always the case that they don't realize all the options, sometimes it's the case that they value things differently. The only viable optioin is self-termination in their mind. That's the logic which is questionable, the diminished value placed on life compared to the greater value placed on not dealing with something.


If the robot's visionary perception is such that it can't make out the ladder against the wall, it's next most natural response would be to protect its circuitry (all AI is hard coded with Self preservation protocols). So the robot would deactivate itself, to prevent corrosive damage from an interaction between the water and live electricity running through its system. If that robot had perceived it had more options available to it, self-deactivation would never have an "option".

The machine is merely reacting to the scenario; appropos:

A robot would only take the action of shuting itself down to protect its circuitry if it was programmed to take that course of action specifically.

If humans are hard coded for self-preservation as you have said earlier, then taking their own life would be contrary to that coding. It doesn't fall under the same category as the robot shutting down to protect circuitry. When a human ends it's life, there is no protecting anything. It's not the same.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Logical Fallacy: Using your own line of argument, If Humans were created perfect, then the SUV would have been perfect - but since the SUV is not perfect (According to you) then the human which made it could not have been perfect to begin with.
No sir. That's flawed logic.

All I'm saying is that the beginning state of both things was different, and their creators had different natures at the time of creation.


Here's another 64 million dollar question for you (I'm generous aren't I? :icon_mrgr)

Can something that is perfect possess the capacity for imperfection?
According to God's word, yes. He can make the imperfect perfect. Humans can be perfect again with God's help.


Think about this one CAREFULLY before you answer. Yes, it's a trick question. I don't give out 64 mill for easy ones.
Oops!... :eusa_shif


- God says "Follow me or DIE". Yep. Case closed. :icon_mrgr
Bwoy, interpretation...

God offers a choice. He isn't forcing anyone to follow Him. He's stating a fact. Life is only possible through Him. That's how it works. There's nothing else that can offer life. Only Him. Therefore, chosing not to be with God, and to go your own way, is to chose death. It's like someone saying, "Here on in this building, there is all that is needed for life, stay here, because outside, there is nothing to sustain life." You are free to go, but that comes with a consequence.

Remember, life is a gift. We didn't have to experience it. It's not owed to us.
God didn't have to share it. All He's saying is, that we can chose to accept the gift of life, or reject it. Either way, there are implications and consequences.


- Not true. God hardened his heart, in as much as he hardened the hearts of the Egyptians. They saw the wrath of God at work, but God interferred with their "free will" by making them stubborn, just so that he could flex his muscle against them - thereby making any doubters in the children of Israel to be believers. Satan is an archetype that is fulfilling a pre-scripted role. Nobody sits that close to God and defies him, unless God allows it. That's evidence of TRUE CONTROL my friend. You underestimate the true power of God yute. ;)
Lucifer was high up there in Heaven breddrin, he knew exactly how God was flexing.


- A Deontologist I see. I knew I'd smoke you out sooner or later. :icon_mrgr
Umm....


We do what is right as it is dictated by God. Notice I used the word "dictated". There was no democracy on what God thinks is right. He's an autocratic leader. He makes up his mind irrespective of what you and I think. Again, as I said in another thread, "...might is right...". God has the might, therefore, God is always right. So I would definitely say that it boils down to the enormity of the player, not players, since God plays both sides of the chessboard. It doesn't matter what we think is right. Does it?
It's not "might" that is right. It's the principle. God's might only upholds His principle of love. It's love that is the issue. Sure He has laid out what's right and what's not right - according to the principle of love. If we have true love in our hearts, we won't be thinking about doing good things, and turning away from bad things because of what God will do to us. We'll be motivated to do good, and shun evil simply because we love ourselves, our fellow humans, the whole of creation, and God. Dictators rely on fear to motivate, God motivates with love. His might is evident, and He displays it when necessary, but His desire is not to use scare tactics to get man to do what is right.

[Xenocrates]

Sure I do. :icon_mrgr

- Hmmm... in Gillion's words, the "TAR'd, GZipped, Zipped, RARed, ACEd" version of it is simply this:

God is not human, therefore it is illogical to try to relate to God as a human being with a human mind. That's why he sent Christ to be the interface between himself and us. It's the same reason why the Architect created the Oracle between himself and the humans bound to the Matrix. Christ, like the Oracle, is a being less bound by the parameters of perfection and will therefore be more sympathetic to our cause. God on the other hand, will not. I've learned that the number 1 reason why so many young folks drift into religious dispondency is because the omni-benevolent God they learned of in Sunday School, doesn't coincide with the God they see at work in their violent, brutal, every-day world. I could go on, but then I'd have to unzip everything. You probably don't want the unzipped version. That would end this discussion... and lord knows I'm enjoying it. :icon_mrgr


I thought you said we were hard coded to choose life?

- You're right. I did say that. I didn't get into the minor details of it - and in so doing have created myself a logical fallacy. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/riiight.gif What I really meant to say has already been said. I just shortened it thus to in an attempt to shorten what I had written before. Sorry for the xfusion.


It's not always the case that they don't realize all the options, sometimes it's the case that they value things differently.

- I conceed. Quite right indeed. It's a pity this one wasn't valued at 64 mill. :icon_mrgr


It doesn't fall under the same category as the robot shutting down to protect circuitry. When a human ends it's life, there is no protecting anything. It's not the same.

- Categorically? It isn't. Conceptually? It is. It's the same thing as those people in the World Trade Center who leaped to their death to avoid the excruciatingly painful death that would await them if they remained inside the building. When faced with tragic circumstances, the mind chooses the option that will warrant the least amount of suffering. That's what I've been getting at. But enough about this... I'm forgetting what we were talking about...

[Xenocrates]

According to God's word, yes. He can make the imperfect perfect. Humans can be perfect again with God's help.

- I don't think you're following me here. I'm not talking about God's ability to make something imperfect, perfect again. I'm asking, if something that is perfect, become imperfect in and of itself? Isn't it a logical fallacy to say that perfection spontaneously becomes imperfect without some external cause inciting the imperfection?


He isn't forcing anyone to follow Him. He's stating a fact.

- This sounds like an attempt to put a positive spin on a hard cold fact. It doesn't matter how much we "dress up" a hard cold fact, it will always remain that way. You either Serve God or you Die. It's that simple. To me, that's not exactly giving us a choice, especially since nobody wants to die, unless, as you have so eloquently schooled me, they don't value their life.

Compare and Contrast:

Saddam Hussein tells the Kurds that they either Leave Iraq or die. Saddam Hussein is only stating a fact. The Kurds die in a chemical attack. You know the rest of the story, so I won't elaborate further...


Therefore, chosing not to be with God, and to go your own way, is to chose death.

- Thanks for proving my point. :eusa_clap


Lucifer was high up there in Heaven breddrin, he knew exactly how God was flexing

- Then Lucifer was stupid. If he was stupid, then he was never perfect. XD


It's not "might" that is right. It's the principle.

- You're a professional Spin-Doctor, aren't you? Whose payroll are you on anyway? :icon_mrgr (Nah... I'm teasing)

But seriously, I'd like to see you oppose God. Then we'd see who's might is right is principle. ;)

[Xenocrates]

God's might only upholds His principle of love.

- WHAT?! http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/twitch.gif Need I remind you of the countless killings of the Old Testament? Is that a God of Love? Or were those men being led by a vengeful sadistic merciless emperor? What kind of God uses his might to enforce love? LOVE?! Hello?! Are we forgetting what the word means? Women, children and even the flock was slaughtered. Is that any representation of 1 Corinthians 13? Don't tell me the cause was "just" - I'm sure an almighty God could have excised a more humane route to expelling evil from the land. Afterall, he IS God! Isn't he? Nothing is impossible for God! Isn't it?


Dictators rely on fear to motivate, God motivates with love.

- Serve God or Die. I don't want to die. Do you? Here's another chance at the 64 mill jackpot:

If everyone were to go to heaven, regardless of whether or not you are good or evil, would you still serve God in the way you do?


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/devil.gif


His desire is not to use scare tactics to get man to do what is right.

- Ofcourse not, that's why those who don't, will go str8 to Hell. :rotflm:

[bernie]

:eusa_snoo :eusa_snoo :eusa_snoo
_____________________________

[Nastro]

hhmmm...Perfection.....

I think its all about perception. Some may look at perfection is the purest form of an element (or quality or object or person....you get the gist.)

Others may view perfection as complete balance between opposing elements, etc....

Perception..dicates.

[easyskanka]

It's just as as well that Xeno and BCK have a high tolerence level for going around in circles. Personally it all makes me feel quite dizzy.

When people have something they consider valuable,often times they want to be seen or heard,or both. Satan was stunning and still is as it happens.

If I admire something about someone,such as the beauty of a woman or her intellectual capacity,she can bask in the glow of the compliment I pay her and feel rightly good about herself.

If she excercizes wisdom she will give thanks to God for having blessed her with both beauty and brains, thus reflecting the the glory that God gave to her, back to her creator.

God blessed some of us with high intellect and various other good attributes.
When we revel in our blessings to the point of becoming self obsessed with our own high self esteem,then we inadvertently start down the road that some of the fallen angels embarked upon.

Brains is a blessing,especially when it is used to glorify the one who gave it generously and selflessly. However when it becomes to wrapped up in it's own cleverness,then sin is not far behind.

God did not deliberately create any angel with a greater propensity to commit sin as is being alluded to. Jesus our lord was placed in a position that he could have sinned on several occassions.He set an example by putting his Father first,which is what God requires of us all. Had Lucifer done the same along with the other angels, history would now be different and everlasting life would have been an automatic gift to all of mankind.

God has an answer to everything but he is not argumentative.He only speaks what neeeds to be said. Too much talk can end up having the opposite effect it was originally intended to have. If we can't hear and appreciate the beauty that can exist in straight-forwardness and relative simplicity,then perhaps we've completely missed the essence of the message.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Hmmm... in Gillion's words, the "TAR'd, GZipped, Zipped, RARed, ACEd" version of it is simply this:

God is not human, therefore it is illogical to try to relate to God as a human being with a human mind. That's why he sent Christ to be the interface between himself and us. It's the same reason why the Architect created the Oracle between himself and the humans bound to the Matrix. Christ, like the Oracle, is a being less bound by the parameters of perfection and will therefore be more sympathetic to our cause. God on the other hand, will not. I've learned that the number 1 reason why so many young folks drift into religious dispondency is because the omni-benevolent God they learned of in Sunday School, doesn't coincide with the God they see at work in their violent, brutal, every-day world. I could go on, but then I'd have to unzip everything. You probably don't want the unzipped version. That would end this discussion... and lord knows I'm enjoying it. :icon_mrgr


That's the reason why you're a Christian? I dont' get it. :eusa_eh:

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Awrite Xeno, explain to me what's up with this statement from Ezekiel 28 vs 15 KJV:


15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

1 Kings 8:61 KJV

61Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
So if we keep God's commandments our hearts will be perfect.

1 Kings 15:3 KJV

3And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.
God considered David's heart to be perfect.

2 Chronicles 15:17 KJV

17But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.
Asa was considered perfect by God.

[Gillion]

Easy .... BCK is a donkey ... and love to be difficult.


Xeno ... well him just nuff :)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- WHAT?! http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/twitch.gif Need I remind you of the countless killings of the Old Testament? Is that a God of Love? Or were those men being led by a vengeful sadistic merciless emperor? What kind of God uses his might to enforce love? LOVE?! Hello?! Are we forgetting what the word means? Women, children and even the flock was slaughtered. Is that any representation of 1 Corinthians 13? Don't tell me the cause was "just" - I'm sure an almighty God could have excised a more humane route to expelling evil from the land. Afterall, he IS God! Isn't he? Nothing is impossible for God! Isn't it?
Oh you're sure are you? Then why aren't you God? He's the only one able to see all sides and angles of a situation, and thus is uniquely qualified to make those kinds of existential decisions in order to solve a problem. He made everything. He owns everything. He has the right to do whatever He sees fit. That doesn't contradict the fact that He loves His creations. If people chose to go against Him, and threaten the kind of life for others, which God intended them to have, then it's quite plausible that he made decision to grant those people who chose to go against Him what they wanted - separation from Him.

It's out of love that He would take that kind of action to give one set what they wanted after they had made their choice, and give the other set the chance to chose life with Him without threat of inteferance from the first set.



- Serve God or Die. I don't want to die. Do you? Here's another chance at the 64 mill jackpot:

If everyone were to go to heaven, regardless of whether or not you are good or evil, would you still serve God in the way you do?


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/devil.gif



I would, because His way is good and right. Look at God's laws. They are good. They seek to promote a way of life that facillitates people living at peache and in harmony with one another. Following God's laws lead to lives of less strife, stress, and problems. If everybody followed God's laws, there would be less suffering. It's the better way to live. So sure, I'd chose to live that way regardless.


- Ofcourse not, that's why those who don't, will go str8 to Hell. :rotflm:
Perception is thing bwoy...

[Nastro]

Easy .... BCK is a donkey ... and love to be difficult.


Xeno ... well him just nuff :)


lol..,now that makes PERFECT sense...lol

[bernie]

Easy .... BCK is a donkey ... and love to be difficult.


Xeno ... well him just nuff :)
lol...but wouldn't that be a mule?:eusa_shif

[BlackCryptoKnight]

lol...but wouldn't that be a mule?:eusa_shif
Yuh nuh 'ave nuh talk bernie. (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52888&postcount=348)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Easy .... BCK is a donkey ... and love to be difficult.


Waddever ...

My wife love me regardless. ;)


Lucky me ...:eusa_whis

[Gillion]

Waddever ...

My wife love me regardless. ;)


Lucky me ...:eusa_whis

Yes ... only because she gets to ri .... wait .... can I say what I want to say without the snitch switch going on high alert ?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Yes ... only because she gets to ri .... wait .... can I say what I want to say without the snitch switch going on high alert ?
No you can't. :eusa_naug

You're off topic anywayz.:eusa_snoo

[bernie]

Yuh nuh 'ave nuh talk bernie. (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52888&postcount=348)
**corupt**:eusa_snoo
since a run yuh deh run mi mi gawn:eusa_whis

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

This thread has more heat than Iraq.. its been hard keeping up

I think Skanka said it best when he said "for us perfection is subjective" and in that sense it is.

Practically, perfection is an ideal, a concept percieved to be the ultimate, and in the real sense it is dynamic, having a bandwidth of tolerance in either direction.
The universe is perfect because it balances and counter-balances perpetually to maintain itself.
Humanity is perfect, grief and pain is couter-balanced by joy,bliss, and love. During the worst of times we see the best of mankind and by the mecry of the creator life on earth is maintained.

Life in any form cannot exist without struggle.
Life in any form has a purpose, no matter how small. That is perfection.
So too does our lives have a purpose, how we fulfill that purpose is our choice. That is perfection

As mere mortals we ask ourselves some hard questions, and we struggle with the fact that our God doesn't seem to be as perfect as our perception allows us to think. He is not the brethren next door, who we can ask "WHY?".
The greeks and romans made their gods to be just as quarrelsome and spiteful as themselves because it was hard for them to perceive what is the true nature of a god, on the flip side we find the members of CY, with some good arguments trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle in dis day and age.
I and I seh leggo of conventional thinking.

Remember this, the bible was written by man (inspired or otherwise), and history is written by the victors, the bible is a polictical book, these books were mostly not written by the men or women who's name they are under; no king or general is going to blight his name in history with the attrocities of his war crimes or leave himself with no justification for his actions.
So he writes history himself, or otherwise his political family with a vested interest, describing how God gave him instructions, or this was sanction by God,as with today God's name is the easiest name to call.

WE cannot have meaniful discussions about God's love or his complexity or even what kind of God is he without discussion these implications in the first place.
The bible is an inspired book, the true nature of God cannot be hidden, nor manipulated by man, it is there, look with suppliant and open minds.

There are no perfect men
Only those occassions
Where love is given free
Not for compensation
Give of your heart
And Jah will bless you ... Ras Ainsley

Izemi-Clem

[Manu]

IZemi......trust mi.....you know you stuff and you put it across well. :eusa_clap

[Xenocrates]

That's the reason why you're a Christian? I dont' get it.

- You asked why I still believe, not why I believe at all; Two very different questions. The question you asked originally seems to imply:

"In light of all of this, why haven't you already forsaken your faith?"

That's what I answered. I can unzip it a little further for you to understand:

When it comes to issues of faith and religion, there are two kinds of people:

1. Those who want what they want to believe to be true.

2. Those who want to believe in what is true.

It is essentially the same thing as deciding between the blue and the red pill. It's just a matter of how much you really want to know.

People who want what they believe to be true usually don't have a good reason why. They often fumble with their answers or give circular responses. This is because of social conditioning from early youth, and to some extent, their unwillingness to let go of what they feel comfortable believing. Virtually everything they know to be true was taught by elders @ church. They were rarely encouraged to think for themselves. When such an individual is challenged with hard questions about why they believe, they quickly become cynical and eventually withdraw their faith. If there is no reason behind the belief, it is easy to become indoctrinated, or overwhelmed by tough questions. This gives rise to fear, uncertainty, doubt and then finally, disbelief.

People who want to believe in what is true, are not concerned about what they previously believed. Therefore, fear, uncertainty, doubt and disbelief never become a part of the equation. They are not threatened by what they might find. They are primarily interested in the final cause, or the purpose of a thing, as opposed it's formal cause, which is the expression of what a thing is. Such individuals seek to break down the simulacrum to its most basic and primal elements, thereby exposing the visceral underbelly of the blackness that remains, in an effort to discern truth from quackery. To them, the unexamined life is not worth living (Socrates, 346 B.C.). It is through this, that a much deeper and uncompromisable understanding, and thus appreciation of their belief, is achieved.

Therefore, to question "why I believe" seems to suggest, that if I hold these views, then I have no reason to believe. Quite the contrary. My use of the word "dictator" is a deliberate play upon our human connection to the word. It's fascinating to me, that irrespective of the plainly obvious taunting with the word, that many simply cannot wrap their heads around the fact that it is a logical fallacy! God is not human, therefore the human connotation of the word "dictator" doesn't apply.

Appropos, a dictator dictates; quite simply. He doesn't have to feed people into woodchippers. Unchain your minds for a moment.

I am also fascinated at how desperately we cling to what our Bible says, in hopes that it might change the definition of what I've already said, only to realise that the Bible still confirms the meaning of the word "dictator". No passage of scripture does it better than Isaiah 45:7 -


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things

What might follow this response, is a classic act of denial, an attempt to re-translate what the Bible says quite plainly, into something far more subtle. Denial is truly, the most predictable of all human emotions.

I am one of the people in the second set. I seek the truth before I believe. Believing blindly is far too dangerous. Therefore, I don't fear having my belief being challenged by what I might find. It is therefore not illogical for me to come right back to what I believe, because now that I know the truth, what I believe makes more sense - even if it is still rife with some level of subjectivity. The bottomline is that I understand the purpose of religion, and as such, how it actually binds the spiritual part of all simulacra to the creator of the simulacrum. It's a dark necessity that is shrouded in a book who's writings were effectuated from a human point of view. Herein lies our problem.

[more...]

[Xenocrates]

If God wrote the bible himself, most people would not read it, let alone believe in a God. So he let man do it, since it would make more sense to us, and paint Him in a more "omni-benevolent light". That's why so many people blindly believe that God is Love. Quite a fallacy. Christ is Love. God is everything including love. Since he is the unchallenged dictator of this simulacrum, it should not be hard to understand the ecclesiastic lemma:

The simulacrum is never what hides the truth - it is truth that hides the fact that there is none. The simulacrum is true.

Translation:

"The universe doesn't hide the purpose for which it was created. Those who seek the truth behind it's purpose will soon realise that there is no truth. This fact is only obscured by their belief in some truth. The universe is the only truth, which is an expression of the will of its creator."

The Bible merely colours our understanding of a creator. It gives him human characteristics, a human disposition, characteristic of the mundane gods of the Romans and ancient Greek. God is not human. He never was, still isn't, and never will be. Therefore, all of our efforts to see God from a human perspective is moot - even if the bible did write it that way.

While God is busy being God (i.e. a dictator), we're busy trying to understand him with human ways of thought. To suggest that imperfection manifested itself out of thin air is both ludicrous, and insultive to the true might of God. The truth is that God willed this universe into being exactly the way he wanted it to be (hence the ecclesiastic lemma above). That's how much power he has. Imperfection didn't just magically manifest itself out of thin air. It was always there from the beginning. As such, there is no accident from the hands of God. There is only cause and effect.

The why of imperfection is a little more difficult. We know the story of Job. Some of us see a man with faith in God. I see a man that was programmed by God - inasmuch as the Egyptians were programmed to harden their hearts. Whatever free will we have is defined by God - again, that's how powerful God is. So then, it becomes logical - if the universe were indeed created free from imperfection, God would have no need to interact with it. He would get no glory from it. It would be like a toy in perpetual motion - going on and on ad infinitum, with no end, no purpose, no sense of reward... nothing.

Imperfection was a necessary Evil. - no pun intended.

Let us not be pigeon-holed by our narrow understanding of what God is. God is a God. Therefore, like all Gods, (indeed, if there were more than one) he exercises complete, total, unquestioned, unchallenged, sovereign control over everything that exists. Therefore, if imperfection exists in the universe, He put it there - deliberately - for his own entertainment.

XD.

[easyskanka]

The implication for accepting that God created evil is not as ludicrous as it might first appear.On one level Xeno is absolutely right.God did indeed create all things in the universe,so by default he did create evil.

Now on earth we have everything that we could possibly want in order to make all of the family of mankind happy, living in a paradise of our own making.
We would not be perfect without the direct input of the Almighty,but we sure as heck would be as close as is humanly possible.

With all the natural born geniuses pooling their resources to solve all of our problems,everything would be just dandy.There would be little that human kind would not be able to accomplish for the benefit of his fellow man.

However,we do not allow our more benevolent side to dominate our existence.We are instead lead by greed,selfishness and a myriad other negatives that stunt our growth and development.

It is very interesting what the creator said to Cain before he ended up slaying his brother Abel. God said,'he should change his attitude or else sin will be waiting for him and he will not be the master over sin'.

God alone has the dominion and mastery over sin.This is the reason why he requires us all to be obedient to him alone, so that his power will always afford us protection.

Satan challenged God's supreme right to have this power, and new full well that he could not win the ultimate struggle to wrest power from the true God.
However satan reasoned,what is choice if you do not excercise it,and the rest is history.We all have everyday choices to make and we will of course be judged according to our consciences and actions.

Just because we have the knowledge and means to create atom bombs and other weapons of mass destruction does not mean we should create them. Make no mistake it takes incredibly bright minds to create these devilish devices,but these same minds could have come up with something far more constructive,like feeding,clothing and sheltering all the peoples of the world.

Satan wants to be a ruler in is own right,yet he was not the one to construct the same universe he would like to have control over. He is the only dictator on the block, because he seeks control over what is not his own. If I don't own a car,what right have I got to tell the owner when and where he should drive it. The owner dictates to himself when and where he drives his own car,only he says specifically that this is not dictatorship,but is freedom of choice.

Those of us who have gotten to know our loving and forgiving Father on high will never label him a 'dictator' because he gave us life as a gift of 'love',the fact that there are rules to be observed does not equate to a dictatorship,no matter how well the 'term' is dressed and sugar coated.

Satan and those who would have sympathies for his stance will make persuasive arguments to turn even the most Godly inclined folks from his narrow and winding path. God's angels are clothed in light and will only speak truth.The deciever and his angels also imitate this very same behavior,only careful tasting of the fruit they bear will be able to distinguish them apart.

Stay awake and alert people,you have been warned.Whatever God is,he really is good.You and I might stumble,we might indeed fall,but the true God will remain righteous and true and not falter from 'his' resolute code of behavior.God cannot be a dictator because everything belongs to him at his inception of it. Only one who wishes to own it second hand can be rightfully termed a 'dictator'.

[Xenocrates]

That's a very interesting spin on the issue ES. However, the only problem with your position, is that Satan doesn't do what God doesn't allow. So if Satan is in fact working for God, how does that make Satan the dictator? Satan doesn't have absolute authority. God does. That's the essence of dictatorship. Whose rules are we trying to follow? God's or Satan's? God created Satan to effect balance in the universe. Therefore, it is implausible that Satan is the dictator here. He's nothing more than a strong arm henchman.

Notice how conveniently Satan presented himself along with the other angels to God, in Job 1:6. He was right there! If Satan was God's enemy, how in creation does he still have access to heaven, to the point that God and Satan are bargaining, face to face, as though they were old friends, over who has the greater influence over mankind? God even stepped up his wager, by placing his servant Job on the line. It's like they were placing bets at a poker table for heaven's sake!

Satan the dictator? I seriously doubt that. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/nope.gif

Alas, we're drifting off-topic. Let's continue this part of the discussion here (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651&page=3).

[easyskanka]

Satan is said dictator in his limited capacity Xeno my friend. All dictators are self delusional with their sense of self grandeur clouding their judgement.

Remember what he said to Jesus.'All this is mine,it has been given to me,and I will give it to you if you bow down in worship of me.' God has allowed satan stewardship of the world for a period in an attempt to let him prove his argument that was left off from the 'Job Saga'.

Satan is one clever dude who's propositions are persuasive.But his limitations are that he is going against his purpose of existence. God's will is what will prevail because there really is nothing he can teach his creator.This is satan's dilema.

God is not a dictator because he consults his heavenly sons on suggestions, as in the the case of the king of Israel whom was married to Jezebel. I think it was 'Ahab'. God who is the commander-in chief allowed the suggestion of an angel to be the idea that carried the day,but God gave the authorization to be carried out,just like a gov'nor ought to do.

Satan is-is own worst enemy,he wishes to have emphatic rulership without a general consensus.Christ has taken a completely different route. By being humble and industrious he has gained all the power a person other than the Almighty could possibly have.He is Soloman whom God loved dearly,only without the inherent weaknesses that even Soloman was prone too.

[Xenocrates]

So lemme get this straight:

1. A Dictator has absolute power
2. God has Absolute Power
3. Satan < God
4. Therefore, Satan = Dictator? :rotflm: :dwl:

That's the fuzziest I've ever heard. Gotta give it to ya. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/nope.gif

"Mommy, make it stop! Say it ain't so!" ... :rofl:

Just let it soak in for a few days guys. Yall'll get over it. It's not so bad. :cool:

[easyskanka]

Well I kinda wonder which camp will be laughing along with you the most.The Almighty's Or the Trickster's?;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Xdude, I hear what you're saying about the anthropomorphism - assigning human qualities to God. When God is referred to as being a "dictator" people will naturally associate the popular image and concept of a tyrannical leader, with that word, and thus God.

God is definitely in control, in that, nothing happens without His knowledge or without Him allowing it to happen, and He does have the power to do whatever He wants, even to stop evil etc. But He does things according to His plan and schedule. We may not understand why, but He has assured us that "... all things work together for good to them that love God ..." -Romans 8:28

I don't see where the concept of God being in control, conflicts with Him creating His creations perfect. Ezekiel 28 vs 15 KJV indicates that Lucifer indeed was created perfect. (Xdude, I'd be interested in your take on that piece of scripture. I asked you to comment on it here (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54630&postcount=89)).

Maybe the purpose of God casting Lucifer down to earth, and subsequently creating life here, was to actually prove something to all creation - that beings can choose to truly love God out of love, and not because they were forced. To me, personally, that doesn't really change what my take on things are. All that I need to know is that God is the source of life, and so, I need to align myself Him. I've seen the things He has done, and it is evident to me that He loves His creations. That's enough for me to chose Him. I also see that the world's choice to go it's own way has lead to it's destruction as a consequence. Objectively, I see that God's way, His laws and commandments, are practical guides to Perfect Life. I see that to go contrary to them, is a sure path to destruction, and corruption of life - imperfection.

[Xenocrates]

(Xdude, I'd be interested in your take on that piece of scripture. I asked you to comment on it here (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54630&postcount=89)).

- I already commented on it. I just didn't highlight what you wrote before. I'll say it again. This time I'll try to make it clearer (even Izemi-Clem hit the nail on the head in the other thread).

The Bible, written by man, is based on MAN's interpretation of God. This explains the multiplicity of contradictions in the Bible. First we read that God created evil, then we read that God created everything perfect. Does that make sense to you?

Ofcourse not! :eusa_snoo

How can something be evil and perfect? If we count evil to be a form of imperfection, then nothing that was created evil is perfect. Therefore, it is impossible that the universe was created perfect, since evil was always a part of it from day one. It's manifestation was only a matter of time. God was fully aware that when he created Lucifer, that he would become evil. Lucifer becoming Satan was no accident. If it was, that would suggest that God is not all powerful.

The scripture to which you refer is but ONE of MANY which directly contradicts the other depictions of God that we see through the rest of the Bible. How can God be considered omni-benevolent or love? One man sins and his entire family dies. Another man steals a Babylonian artifact, and 36 unrelated soldiers die in battle. That doesn't even include the countless other slaughterings, killings, ethnic cleansings etc. done in the name of God.... Yet we read that God is "love"?

How!? :eusa_eh:

What we must understand BCK, is that the Bible is a smorgasboard of human emotion. It was inspired by God, but written by men. God didn't write it. It's men's interpretations of who they thought God is. It only logically follows that men would write their own human interpretations of the being they call "God". Hence, various writers wrote different things, much of which contradict others before or after them. That's why we have a Bible rife with self-contradictions.

This is one of the reasons why I tell people, never hang on to one line of scripture. One verse from the Bible cannot tell us who God is. The Bible is like a Jigsaw puzzle. Those who wish to find out who God really is have to study long and hard. If we pick out one or two scriptures, it means nothing, in comparison to the rest of the Bible.

This is why you always see me quoting Isaiah 45:7. I happened upon that scripture when I was trying to put my finger on why such a God of "love" could be capable of such atrocity. It just didn't make sense to me. I was about 14 years old when I found it in one of my regular bible studies. In addition to the rest of the Bible, Isaiah 45:7 and Job 1:6 help to paint a near complete picture of who God really is. Of all the good and comparatively evil things that has been done by God's hand, I realised something incredibly simple:

God can do whatever he chooses - that's the essence of Him being God. His actions are not bound by our interpretation of "good" or "evil".

This is where you are having a problem BCK, because you believe that only good can come from God. If that were the case, he would never be God to begin with. Think about it. ;)

[easyskanka]

"Maybe the purpose of God casting Lucifer down to earth, and subsequently creating life here, was to actually prove something to all creation"
Satan was not cast down to earth at the time of the creation of man.If I am wrong about this please alert me to the scripture which states this as fact.

I really do not wish to be pedantic about this but it is not right to speak with seemingly authority on none biblical fact,yet continue to plow on regardless.

Lucifer excercised his freedom of movement and speech to do and say the wrong things. Period. Later when people multiplied on the earth other angels did the same in order to have sexual relationships with women.Period.

Adam and Eve were created perfect in mind and body and were told plainly some rules that were to be followed.They broke said rules and paid the penalty for disobedience.They died with no hope of returning. Period

What has satan,also known as Lucifer,and a third of the heavenly hosts,along with Adam and Eve got in common?

Answer: They all deliberately went against the rules of the creator, and have, and will bear the consequences.Period.

There are times when a man should hold his tongue,especially if it is a forked one.There is such a thing as to stumble certain wavering folks who would otherwise look to certain individuals for guidance. When one resorts to labelling the Almighty with a less than worthy description of his true character,this is defamatory,and although understandable,is less forgiveable when it might allow him, (God) to look bad in the eyes of those who would wish to otherwise approach his throne of undeserved kindness.Do not take it for granted that people all have the same mental agility to grasp things in the self same manner. We are individuals with an individual's needs.

[Xenocrates]

So tell me easy, if Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, how in creation are they to disobey God? The Bible says quite clearly that they had no knowledge of good or evil until they partook of the fruit. Let us examine Genesis chapter 3 in detail:


Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.

- Question: Why did God allow the Devil, who is supposedly evil, enter into the Garden of Eden among two people, who are clearly not smarter than he was? God deliberately allowed Satan to tempt the first couple and thus introduce sin into the world. This is the same thing as placing a harmless mouse into the same cage as a python, then commanding the mouse not to get eaten. You're not going to tell me that this act wasn't deliberate. Adam and Eve had no chance against Satan. So therefore this:


They all deliberately went against the rules of the creator

...is the same thing as saying that the mouse deliberately got himself eaten by the python - which is ridiculous. Moving on...


The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

- So they did remember that they were not to eat of the fruit. But notice what Satan says to them:


You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

- ...which means they knew nothing of Good or Evil. The Devil was partially right. If they did, there's no way the devil would have been able to fool them. Look what happened next:


When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked..

- So they became intelligent AFTER eating of the fruit! Neither of them were intelligent enough to be able to differentiate between good or evil prior to eating of the fruit. They were like unto children - ignorant of the very fact that they were naked! How can ANYONE then blame either Adam or Eve for committing a sin for which they had no proper understanding? As far as they understood, the devil was one in the same as God. He had the same physical appearance as a supernatural being! Satan appeared to them as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) "Serpent" during the King James Era was an Elizabethan word whose synonymn was "magician" or "deceiver"! They were toast once Satan appeared in that Garden! They were no match for him!

[more...]

[Xenocrates]

Question: Is it reasonable to expect children to be able to differentiate between a con-artist and the real mckoy? That's a ludicrous expectation.

Therefore, this is either a case of:

1. Clear negligence on God's behalf OR
2. Deliberate design

Since God is the powerful being that he is, (and judging from that little conversation he had with Satan before touching Job), it is not hard to imagine that this is clearly a case of # 2.

It is quite possible that God had another one of those conversations prior to allowing Satan into the Garden of Eden. NOTHING happens without God allowing it. Therefore, this:


When one resorts to labelling the Almighty with a less than worthy description of his true character,this is defamatory

- is a terribly flawed conclusion. God is a being with absolute power and I am only referring to him as such. He can do whatever he so chooses, whether or not you choose to believe it. Let me tell you what is really defammatory:

It is defammatory to suggest that God (who even you guys believe has absolute power) cannot do as he so chooses. It's like you guys are saying, although he is God, he is not allowed to be responsible for evil, as though evil was some kind of entity that God has no control over. According to you blokes, evil spawned out of thin air and God can't seem to just eradicate it from the universe with just a thought. Evil seems to have some kind of pesky strength that not even God has the power to subdue. Such a preposterous delusion suggests that God is not all powerful. That's defammatory.

If God has no control over evil, then who does?

If God is not responsible for evil, then why do you refer to him as God?

The God of your imagination is a weakling - one who is so incompetent, that he creates a universe, yet lacks complete control over everything that happens within it - to the point where the devil, &#188; of the angels in heaven and human kind, can run amok, anarchistic and unchecked, while God in all his might, sits on his throne, twiddling his thumbs, trying to figure out what to do about it. He's such a pansy, that the only thing he is capable of is actions formed out of something as insipid as "love". That's not the God of my salvation. :eusa_snoo

The God I believe in, is so powerful, that even the devil is in subjection to his powerful will. Any evil that exists, he is responsible for it. Any good that exists, he is responsible for it. That's just how powerful my God is.

So am I really being defammatory? I sincerely doubt you appreciate the meaning of the word my friend. :cool:

[easyskanka]

First and foremost God places humility and obedience above so called wisdom in one's own eyes. Satan is a trickster and a twister.And as you correctly point out God can indeed do as he chooses.I for one have acknowledged that fact possibly before yourself, but you do have an uncanny skill of hi-jacking other people's thoughts and ideas and somehow making it your own.

Reminds me of another very clever dude who is jealous of the originator of the creation and it's laws and is 'hell' bent on creating a parallel scenario in which he is worshipped as an 'almighty'. It will not come to pass.

Your argument is futile really because either you believe in God's word that everyone he has created has an equal right to existence,or you believe the lie that satan espouses, that God is a dictator and user and has pre-ordained the devil and his cheerleaders to fall,thereby making all that Abel, through to the Christ, and those up to this day and age have endured, completely pointless.

You are undoubtedly a clever fella Xeno, but because even you are unable to figure the Amighty out, does not mean you should resort to underhanded means, such as calling him a 'dictator, even if you have attempted to qualify it by sugar coating it with the 'I still love God despite his dictatorship,' stance.
Like I said before;humility to own up when one is wrong is preferable than digging a deeper hole while wearing 'cool' looking shades declaring,'I must be right, I have knowledge in abundance.' This statement might be true,but it is not always how much you have,as much as how you apply what you have been given.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Let's focus on debating the issue and not on chastising each other.

[easyskanka]

Let's focus on debating the issue and not on chastising each other.

Good point BCK (thanks for the chastisement):D

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Good point BCK (thanks for the chastisement):D
That wasn't chastisement easy, that was moderation. ;)

[AngelsKiss]

First and foremost God places humility and obedience above so called wisdom in one's own eyes. Satan is a trickster and a twister.And as you correctly point out God can indeed do as he chooses.I for one have acknowledged that fact possibly before yourself, but you do have an uncanny skill of hi-jacking other people's thoughts and ideas and somehow making it your own.

Reminds me of another very clever dude who is jealous of the originator of the creation and it's laws and is 'hell' bent on creating a parallel scenario in which he is worshipped as an 'almighty'. It will not come to pass.

Your argument is futile really because either you believe in God's word that everyone he has created has an equal right to existence,or you believe the lie that satan espouses, that God is a dictator and user and has pre-ordained the devil and his cheerleaders to fall,thereby making all that Abel, through to the Christ, and those up to this day and age have endured, completely pointless.

You are undoubtedly a clever fella Xeno, but because even you are unable to figure the Amighty out, does not mean you should resort to underhanded means, such as calling him a 'dictator, even if you have attempted to qualify it by sugar coating it with the 'I still love God despite his dictatorship,' stance.
Like I said before;humility to own up when one is wrong is preferable than digging a deeper hole while wearing 'cool' looking shades declaring,'I must be right, I have knowledge in abundance.' This statement might be true,but it is not always how much you have,as much as how you apply what you have been given.

You know what, I read this and I think you bring up some excellent points here (well except calling out one person). I think this is an excellent reminder for all of us to remember that no matter how clever we think we are or how much we know, we have to be very careful how we state out thoughts especially when it comes to the Creator. If their is one thing that Christ stressed it is humility and it is something that I personally have come to believe that it is important for everyday living.

So I having said that I don't see much wrong with this post.

[Xenocrates]

Cutting away at the fluff, we come to this much:


...but because even you are unable to figure the Amighty out...

- Understanding the Almighty is not a requirement for servitude. If you thought that was the premise of this discourse, you haven't even begun to touch the tip of the iceberg yet my friend.


...does not mean you should resort to underhanded means, such as calling him a 'dictator...

- Underhanded? You think I'm cursing God when I refer to him as a dictator? :rotflm: That's laughable at best. The next thing you're going to tell me is that I'm blaspheming.... :dwl:

I find it hilarious that you find it so difficult to "call a spade a spade and get on with it", as Manu would say. But your inability is only limited by social conditioning - something we were all subjected to.

Proof:

We were all taught that "God is Love" from we were circa 3 years old upwards. We were brainwashed with that teaching for decades. The truth is that teaching is fundamentally flawed - as is evidenced by our world. Just one viewing of the Daily News is enough proof of that.

The kicker then, Sir Easy, is that we were never taught that God can do anything he pleases in sunday School - we were just told about the "love" part - nothing else. ;)

In fact, what's really going to bake your noodles is this:

If our Sunday School teachers knew who God really was, would they have told us?

This is one of the major reasons why many young people backslide and become Atheist. You know why? It's because:

The God they learned about in Church doesn't seem to coincide with the God they see at work in their world. He doesn't seem to be alive in the world. In fact, it would appear by all measures to them, that God is dead.

If God was indeed, just a God of love, isn't it fair to assume that we'd live in a world that is devoid of anything contradictory of "love"? Because clearly, we can't assume that the presence of evil happened on its own. That would suggest that God is not all powerful, and we just can't have that...

...Can we, easyskanka? I thought not.

It should be quite clear then, Master Easy, that the context of this discussion has faaar exceeded the primitive Sunday School level concept of a "God". We both know that our Sunday School teachers either:


Lied to us (as much as our parents did about the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus) or

They simply didn't know any better.


Because the number 1 question on almost every atheist backslider's mind is:

How can a God of "Love" just sit back and let the world drift into utter Chaos? Is he powerless to stop it? Or is he unwilling to stop it? Which is it? Maybe God doesn't exist...

Maybe if someone taught these people how to appreciate God for who he really was from an early stage in life, their concerns would not have become tantamount, to the point where they've categorically forsaken religion and subscribed to Karl Marx's philosophy, that Religion is the "Opium of the Masses". :rolleyes:

Surely, even you can see that. I guess that pretty much makes this statement:


...you have attempted to qualify it by sugar coating it with the 'I still love God despite his dictatorship,' stance.

...seem pretty short-sighted. But I don't think that's your issue. I just don't believe that you've come to a true appreciation of the sheer cosmic scale of this issue. In fact, to address that comment of yours, Paul writes:


When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

The world is not as black and white as you thought it was when you were younger. However, I don't believe that the situation irredeemable. Leave the Sunday School doxology behind for a second, and think outside the box. Study the Bible in WHOLE instead of individual verses. The WHOLE bible gives you an accurate picture of who God really is.

Dare to take the red pill my friend, and I'll show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. :cool:

Cheers

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Sounds like we're drifting into "The Nature of God" territory.

Things may not unfold as we would expect, or desire, in this world. That does not mean that God is not love. It just means that we don't yet get the big picture.


We were all taught that "God is Love" from we were circa 3 years old upwards. We were brainwashed with that teaching for decades. The truth is that teaching is fundamentally flawed - as is evidenced by our world. Just one viewing of the Daily News is enough proof of that.

So you are saying that because terrible things are currently happening in the world, God doesn't love us or that love is not what motivates God's actions?

What is love really? (Yes, I know that's a whole topic unto itself). Whose definition of love are we working with? We may feel that God's actions or apparent inaction may be inconsistent with our definition of love, but is our definition of love adequate or complete enough? It's like we're saying, "If God loved us so much, the logical thing for Him to do in this situation would be this that and the other." but are we in a position to see all the variables in the equation, to see all the sides and angles, in order to make such a judgement? I don't think any of us are. You can't judge God according to human standards. As such, I believe that God's love transcends the confines of what we tend to hold to as the standards of love, and His actions, serve a purpose - the restoration of perfection in His creations, which is consistent with His love for us.

As Xeno said, God is all powerful, and can do anything He wants. As such, I see where it is plausible that He could create His creations perfect.

God's laws give insight into His character. His laws are designed to ensure that His creations exist in peace, harmony and love, in accordance with His wishes. To me, that shows that God has great love for His creations. Provided that sentient beings complied with His laws, all creation would remain perfect as they were originally created.

[nester-san]

Xeno's thoughts on God, coincide with mine on most levels, which is why I do not follow established religion. Not too sure about one God either, but the benevolent God of love idea, makes no sense. If God is only good, then whatever is evil is just as powerfull. So either there is balance between these two forces, or one force is responsible for both.

Why does everyone say we should not judge according to human stadards?

I'm human, and blind acceptance of anything is beyond me, plus being human I have no choice but to apply my standards of humanity, both the wonderfull and the horrific.

One of my theories says we were seeded here by alien's though!

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Xeno's thoughts on God, coincide with mine on most levels, which is why I do not follow established religion. Not too sure about one God either, but the benevolent God of love idea, makes no sense. If God is only good, then whatever is evil is just as powerfull. So either there is balance between these two forces, or one force is responsible for both.
What makes you think that evil is just as powerful as good or God?


Why does everyone say we should not judge according to human stadards?

I'm human, and blind acceptance of anything is beyond me, plus being human I have no choice but to apply my standards of humanity, both the wonderfull and the horrific.
It is understandable that in order to rationalize what we see according to our limited perception, we apply our own standards and definitions based on what we know. But what we truly know about God, is not enough to make an accurate judgement. He created us. We didn't create Him. He knows all there is to know about us. We don't know all there is to know about Him. He knows us better than we know ourselves, and doen't need us to reveal anything to Him, for He already knows. We only know what God chooses to reveal to us about Himself through His word, His laws, His creations and His actions. He is the only entity fit to judge anything. Hence attempting to judge God's actions, or perceived inaction as not being consistent with love, is very likely to be a flawed judgement. I happen to believe it is an incorrect conclusion.


One of my theories says we were seeded here by alien's though!
One could consider God "alien" in the sense that His ways are so different from ours today, and He certainly isn't an "earthling". ;)

But as far as the contemporary ET's go, it's quite likely that they're out there watching us make a mess of this planet, and want nothing to do with us until God comes and sorts things out here. But that's another thread ...

[nester-san]

Hey, I never said it was accurate, I said I had only my experiences as a human being to go off of. I need to know, and as much as that guy in new testament (Thomas, I think) doubted, Jesus never bun a big fire on him, but just kinda reminded him that faith is cornerstone of Christian religion.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

The discussion has drifted from the topic, albeit no less interesting, it has served to make myself think even deeper about the implications rasied in this thread. Some serious argument drop in this thread, left right and centre, love it :eusa_clap :eusa_clap


And as I see it, as much as our limitations allows us ; Perfection in any system, Spiritual or Physical is a system which totally balances itself by itself.

So it is by the creator's design , GOOD balances EVIL perpetually, it is necessary; the yin and the yang, the chi and the chai.
Physically, opposite forces balance each other to maintain our very existence.

I argue that it is absolute that mankind's quest towards perfection is to balance the limitations and instinctical urges of our physical and animalistic nature against the spiritual conscript of our existent souls.

That is ;to deny what comes natural as physical beings, we are programmed for our own survival to be selfish, to take advantage of those less abled than ourselves and to dominate, to be tribal and to react against those that are different from us. In doing so we strive away from our programmed nature, to discipline ourselves towards a higher existence of humankind behaviour of morality and spirituality, becoming more evolved beings. The more disciplined we are the closer we come towards our spiritual self. (the closer we come towards God)

So lets leave from here and postulate as to the WHY ?

If we look carefully for the most part God reasons and has discussions with the angels (even Lucifer), with us he dictates, why ? Different spiritual levels, and we cannot expect to be treated as the same.

Spiritually we progress and our progression is a part of our physcial development as is our spiritual development.
Describing God as a dictator is no different from seeing God as being totally benevolent; they both do not apply.
Both are related to our emmotional bias towards the subject, regardless of how objective we argure.

If we do believe
Then we will see that each soul is a number
counting towards the sum total
Which has no end, no begining. Tuff Tuff Triangle - Urban Journey Album


If we do believe, then we accept that this life is a rite of passage, our progression to the next level (whatever it is that you believe) depends on how we live this life; by whatever standards.
If we do believe, then reasonably why would we expect it to be any different than it is?
Life is a struggle, on any level we are all equal but with different circumstances to deal with.
The fact that we have half life, is by HIS mercy, the bible explains mankind quest and progression in coming to terms with our position and purpose in this creation.

I guess we cannot help but seeing this life by a singular view when the true picture is much broader than we realise.

Izemi-Clem

[Xenocrates]

So you are saying that because terrible things are currently happening in the world, God doesn't love us...

- Not saying that at all.


...or that love is not what motivates God's actions?

- That's closer to, (but not quite) what I'm saying. The purpose of our existence will prove God's ulterior motive (and hence my point about "love" not being a primary motivation). We'll continue this is another thread.

Thanks for the debate guys. This was excellent. :eusa_clap