Attitudes toward education, the educated, and the uneducated.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

What's the attitude towards education, the "educated", and the "undeducated" like where you are?

[easyskanka]

What's the attitude towards education, the "educated", and the "undeducated" like where you are?

For what it's worth I'll atempt to give what is extremely limited perspective on this matter. I had very little education in the schools sector. The person who taught me to read was not a schools teacher,however she was a very nice and competent person overall.

Now back to your original question: The attitude toward education by most parents is naturally a positive one.Not many parents would not want to see their kids do the very best that they can.

Teachers teach to the best of their capability I would guess,although individualism must play a major role in determining how successful they achieve their objectives.

Children will always be children and in most cases need a lot of positive encouragement to achieve/bring out the potential they have in them.

White people live in areas predominently that give their kids the best possible head start and the fact that most teachers are also white helps to give them that extra edge.Not a racist statement,just how things appear to be, through my eyes.

Asians, especially indians and chinese, as opposed to Bangladeshis and Pakistanis do very well in/at schools and on into higher education.The reasons for the strong variations are quite complex,but social status plays a large part in the final outcome as alluded to above.

Black kids present a mixed bag,with the females generally outperforming the lads quite markedly.But then, everyone,sadly,outperforms black boys quite significantly in education. Again the reasons have some validity based in social backgrounds to a more or lesser degree.

Some minorities have tried to redress this imbalance of education deficit by setting up schools of their own,with perhaps some success.Islamic girls schools for example,although this is frowned upon by those who think this method causes divisions amongst other negative detrimental effects.

Black people in London for example who were alarmed and concerned at the way black kids are lagging behind their piers,set up a school to address what is a very serious situation in educational terms.I don't know the finer details of this venture but apparently it was a great success,so much so that none black families wanted to send their children there and probably did.What the current status is 'Today,' I am afraid I do not know.

Much comes down to parents as much as it does to those who teach them.For example many black families believe that once they send their kids to school,that's it,it's now out of their hands.Then when their offspring gets expelled from school,they throw up their hands and wonder what the heck is going on. Indians and Chinese people no doubt take far greater interest in how their children is getting on at the various stages of the child's development,which reeps significant benefits.

So at large, the final product of education is reflected in the working population,with blacks,Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and also more recently Somalis,representing the lowest end of the educated populous.This takes the form of lower paid jobs and less opportunities as well as higher figures of unemployment amongst this group.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

How do those formally educated, and those not formally educated feel about each other?

[easyskanka]

How do those formally educated, and those not formally educated feel about each other?

The way I feel about you BCK (me being not formally educated) ,full of admiration and wonder at your formal education:eusa_shif :)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

The way I feel about you BCK (me being not formally educated) ,full of admiration and wonder at your formal education:eusa_shif :)

You had to go there huh? :rolleyes:

[Xenocrates]

I find that those who aren't formally educated tend to (but not always) feel intimidated of those who are.

Classic example: I go rolling with some cousins in Westmoreland. The populous in that region are for the most part, only educated up to the highschool level. Trying to have a conversation with those kinda people is almost the same thing as trying to talk to children about rocket science. All of their opinions seem to support anarchy in one form or another. What's worse, is that if you demonstrate the ability to comeback from a friendly diss without using harsh language, two things happen:


They start looking at you from head to toe (why do country people do this?)

They alluvasudden start to get all quiet and show classic signs of intimidation (they get overly defensive and start trying to insult instead of sticking to the discussion)


As soon as I'm gone, my cuzes bring back news of how those people think I'm better than them because I have "tertiary education", with my "posh" english etc. etc.

Truth is, Westmoreland patois is the most cryptic form of patois I've ever heard. I was just using standard english. One yute asked me if I was from "out here" :rotflm:

...anyways, the evidence is clear. One of the most common (and perhaps natural?) responses of the uneducated to the educated is behaviour that is consistent with a false feeling of "intimidation" - especially if you are obviously in the same age group as they.

There are many reasons why the reaction is "intimidation" instead of just "Oh zeen". But that's another kettle of fish.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

There is another side of the equation (especially in the work place) where those who are less educated become very competitive (even vindictive) and try to outdo or even show up those who are more educated than they are.

The underlining factor is insecurity and it has to do with who you are as a person, there are many persons who are secure enough within themselves and are able to effectively communicate and relate to any of their more lettered peers, regardless of their social standings.

This behavior of being insecure and less than trusting of peoples with letters behind their names didn't just happen overnight nor is it a natural response, as it is a learned response, as there is a history of the more educated taking advantage of those less endowed in various circumstances.
The trust factor plays a big role especially in the work place as top managers hide behind jargons, obscure terms and false promises, pulling the almighty company handbook, twisting the rules to suit themselves (sounds familiar doesn't it?).
Not to be overlooked is the attitude of some graduates who put on airs and look down on the less lettered, sometimes and most times the failure in communication between both sides, with one side being limited to fully express themselves in a manner which is effective and the other side either not having the ability or not wanting to break their conversations in terms that everyone can overstand.
The best lecturer I had could break down the highest terms in science that the class could easily overstand and learn, I've had lecturers who used so many technical jargons you would figure they was talking to a technical team at the world bank.

As suggested in another thread it is up to the individual whether or not they have had a tertiary education to make themselves balanced and rouded enough to communicate effectively on a levels.

Izemi-Clem

[nester-san]

Well, I personally feel intimidated sometimes when I encounter people who use (not have) a bigger vocabulary than I.

I can understand/appreciate the most wordy and drawn out dialogues: XENO!!

but because the majority of people I deal with are not so wordy, I tend to break down my thoughts into more easily digestible chunks.

[easyskanka]

:icon_arro @ Izemi Clem:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap A standing ovation is due,but don't let it go to your head (said in a light hearted manner,something some people are unable to comprehend unless said by someone they like or crawl around to):D

[Bahama Mama]

Education is not only obtained through formal means. Anyone who utilizes their god given talents, and does not wallow in the mire of ignorance but seeks knowlegde through whatever means necessary, gets my utmost respect and admiration.

I am surrounded by scholarly minds where I am, University. There is no disparity, as everyone here is for the same purpose, which is to receive the formal education that will hopefully help them obtain success in what ever field they pursue. University is not a place for those that have no interest in the riguors of formal education.

Intimidation, Insecurity, and Inferiority Complexes. Those are the three I's that seem to govern the attitudes of the unformally educated to that of the formally educated, from that side of the coin. And to often they let that be known in their attitudes and in their words. Personally I prefer to be scoffed at, than wallow in ignorance to soothe the insecurities of the unformally educated.

[easyskanka]

I don't understand the term 'formally uneducated,' otherwise a lot of sense spoken. It always seems to me or the most times anyway,that the less educated people suffer less belligerence than their more educated piers. In other words humility seems to come that much easier to them.

If for example I disagree with someone else's opinion,especially those who consider themselves formerly educated,they almost automatically take it as a personal afront to themselves,reacting in a sarcastic manner as if to say,how dare I say anything that might impune their intelligence.

What I would say is,well educated or less,naturally gifted or slow to learn,we all make mistakes,we all get it wrong sometimes. Sometimes some of us get it wrong more often than others,but we are all still equal in reality.

Less educated does not necessarily equate to less bright,it just means perhaps some of us did not get the same opportunities as others. Whether highly educated or not, both parties can behave with ignorance of the other.The two are not mutually exclusive.

I come on this forum not for confrontation or aligning myself with any individual(s),but to have a civilized discussion even if that means being frank and straight forward in agreement or indeed disagreement.Hand on heart I always attempt to be balanced in my views,paying compliments were I deem it is due and by the same token criticizing were I think it is also likewise due.I do not respect or disrespect anyone above or below another.

Although some may not believe in the bible,for me it is quite significant to note that Jesus picked his followers from amongst those who were obviously less educated,at least 'formally' so.Personally I think it was not because Jesus was afraid that someone with a lot of education would challenge his teachings, more that the ones he chose were eager to accept the simplicity in which he conducted his affairs, bypassing intellectual bureaucratic idiosyncractic dogma that seldom achieves anything constructive at it's seemingly never ending convolution.

This from a man who the bible tells us knew more than anyone else prior to him.Some of us always have a reply for everything we think of as a negative response to us,even though in reality we cannot always have a worthwhile response unless we inadvertently consider ourselves faultless.

[Bahama Mama]

I have to admit Mr. Skanka, you have dished out a bit of good advice there. I think not only applicable to myself of course, but you knew that already :cool: . Anyway, I prefer to utilize my time on this board in civil discussion instead of confrontation. It acheives nothing, and it is incessantly fustrating. I am sure you agree with me. It is not my intent to have a war of words with you or anyone else on this board (though that may be a challenge because I am opiniated as you are and alot of other folks are as well, but I digress one can only try). I cant totally control what you take from my post, and vice versa for you. Interpretation as is apparent is relative. Hopefully in future we all will be able to pull only the positives from a post while heartily skipping over the not so positives. A challenge indeed!


Anyway I dont want to distract the responses to BCK's thread.
I look forward to sparring debating with you on another interesting topic.

As Canadians say, Cheers!

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail BM



I am surrounded by scholarly minds where I am, University. There is no disparity, as everyone here is for the same purpose, which is to receive the formal education that will hopefully help them obtain success in what ever field they pursue. University is not a place for those that have no interest in the riguors of formal education.

Unfortunately BM we find that is not always the case; there is no need to discuss the competition, the excesses and the double standards we find on some campuses. A local talk show host once described one of our local campuses as an intellectual ghetto, whatever his reasons were for saying this; it is not hard to overstand why he came to such conclusions.
Nuff said.


Intimidation, Insecurity, and Inferiority Complexes. Those are the three I's that seem to govern the attitudes of the unformally educated to that of the formally educated, from that side of the coin. And to often they let that be known in their attitudes and in their words. Personally I prefer to be scoffed at, than wallow in ignorance to soothe the insecurities of the unformally educated.


BM it is easy for me to overstand ES's sentiments as you have used a VERY broad brush and objectively one could consider your statement as being biased and bigoted. To make such a statement suggesting that all people who are not tertiary educated are governed by your 3 I's is wrong. It reeks
I'm certain this was not your intention (if I can be allowed to speak on your behalf) but it is hard to overlook , especially in today’s society where education is used as a separator, just a class, colour and race has been used for years, justifying exploitation and social "apartheid".
The behavior of a few doesn't warrant and justify the classification of all, that in itself is "wallowing in ignorance ". And as a people of African descent we have fought long and hard to remove this kind of labeling, especially from our own.

To whom much is given, much is expected , and if I seem offended it is because I am.
I have seen too many "little people" make so many sacrifices to educate their families and their loved ones, only to have them turn around and disown and belittle them with statements like these.

Intellect is just a tool, consciousness is reason, each person has the right to be judged based not only by who they are but by their actions and how they conduct themselves, not by the actions and behavior of others.

Izemi-Clem

[Bahama Mama]

Hail BM


BM it is easy for me to overstand ES's sentiments as you have used a VERY broad brush and objectively one could consider your statement as being biased and bigoted. To make such a statement suggesting that all people who are not tertiary educated are governed by your 3 I's is wrong. It reeks
I'm certain this was not your intention (if I can be allowed to speak on your behalf) but it is hard to overlook , especially in today’s society where education is used as a separator, just a class, colour and race has been used for years, justifying exploitation and social "apartheid".
The behavior of a few doesn't warrant and justify the classification of all, that in itself is "wallowing in ignorance ". And as a people of African descent we have fought long and hard to remove this kind of labeling, especially from our own.

To whom much is given, much is expected , and if I seem offended it is because I am.
I have seen too many "little people" make so many sacrifices to educate their families and their loved ones, only to have them turn around and disown and belittle them with statements like these.

Intellect is just a tool, consciousness is reason, each person has the right to be judged based not only by who they are but by their actions and how they conduct themselves, not by the actions and behavior of others.

Izemi-Clem

Let me state it was not my intention to make a generalized statement. Blame it on having a very short lunch break, having alot to say, and not enough time to say it. In future I will dedicate a bit more time to construct my answers so they dont give off the impression that is opposite to what I am trying to convey. With that said.....

If you read the first paragraph of my initial repsonse to this thread, I said that people who sought knowledge, education, etc.. whether in school or outside got my utmost respect. I dont believe that education can only be taught in books and in the classroom. I personally do not look down upon anyone who has not received formal education, I am humbled enough whether that is apparent or not to know that at the end of the day we all have to answer to the one whom created us, and no amount of degrees will sway his opinion of us.

What I meant to say is:


There are some people who havent received any formal education, who scoff at those that have received it. They refer to them as arrogant, saying that they think themselves better than others call them sell outs etc. etc ( in some cases it is not warranted). This type of scenario makes for a typical movie plot in which some kid from the ghetto escapes the social ills and betters himself through education, only to return to his community and is treated as an alien and outcast. This is just as painful in an opposite scenario. If one of the three I's doesnt apply in this case, then I dont know what does. Maybe you may have other suggestions.


Your scenario of the college educated son or daughter returning to look down upon the very parents that did not have the opporunity to go to school is very true. Those types of attitudes are born from superiority complexes, and having been trapped in the bubble of the classroom, becasue the real world tends to quickly humble those who conducts themself in that manner.

Anyway please take no offence to what I previously wrote.

[Bahama Mama]

Hail BM


Unfortunately BM we find that is not always the case; there is no need to discuss the competition, the excesses and the double standards we find on some campuses. A local talk show host once described one of our local campuses as an intellectual ghetto, whatever his reasons were for saying this; it is not hard to overstand why he came to such conclusions

I meant that there is no disparity as far as the formally and unformally educated ( I assume that is what BCK meant when he referred to educated and uneducated). Mind you someone that is formally educated is not necessarily smart or possesses common sense. I witness that everyday on my campus. The competition and double standards that you have mentioned is unfortunately how today's University systems have evolved. There is hardly any sharing of information but hoarding of it, to make one look brighter than the other. Everything in life is a competition,and we are socially conditioned with that competitve spirit, some more than others.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail Bahama Mama

Thank you for explaining your post.

I appreci-love (appreciate) the fact that you made the effort to do so.
ES .. Ras-pect for the ovation .. Inspiration abounds all over this forum

Nuff said.
Nuff Love.

Izemi-Clem

[Cocoa]

What's the attitude towards education, the "educated", and the "undeducated" like where you are?
They would rather the skilled and experience than the educated in most high paying job.

The uneducated settles for what is left of them to do and many are poor and on welfare. Sometimes they work more hours than require trying to make ends meet.

The educated keeps on going to school to be more educated in an effort to get a better job, but most times they end up getting the same job as the mass society.

[nester-san]

A person who used to be my close friend did the foll:
his family was rich,very religious. He went to finest schools etc. Had the attitude to match, during the stock market crash bout 7-8 years ago, they were broke overnight.

His family migrated for fear of their lives, he stayed.
His father, who was rich, had the typical " I am superior" mentality had to sleep on the floor of family (who they used to scorn, as being not as educated and elite).
He got a job as a driver, the son went to live with them, the father gave up job so son could get it, and helps him pay for college.

Son gets degree. Comes back to Jamaica, where he gets a very high paying job. Turns his back on father and family, because he is "better" than them for accomplishing more.

Is that just rotten personality or elitism taken to extremes ?

[easyskanka]

:icon_arro Nester-San. This sort of thing varies by degree according to the scenario you describe about the son who seems to have now disowned his family due to his aquired high status.

There does appear to be a distinct pattern to great learning and sometimes becoming too big for one's boots,so to speak.Boasyman can come in different flavours though,and as stressed already by Izemi-Clem,we must be careful not to paint with too broad a brush that unwittingly paints the wrong picture.

:icon_arro Izemi-Clem. The applause and ovation was/is merited and well deserved.:Din my humble opinion

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Let's put another spin on things. What's the view on academics versus vocational (trade) training?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Let's put another spin on things. What's the view on academics versus vocational (trade/skills) training?

What are the attitudes and sentiments held toward these approaches?

[Izemi-Clem]

Let's put another spin on things. What's the view on academics versus vocational (trade) training?

:icon_arro BCK
For a while I've been struggling to figure out just how to approach this question; there are many angles from which it can be approached.
Forgive me if my thoughts aren't together.

Undoubtly tertiary achievements garner more respect than vocational fields, and they are aspired to because it is felt that academic achievements guarantees financial independence.
In the real world, especially today we find this is not necessarily the case; as it is the demand for the skills and services in your chosen field of endeavor which will determine how successful and independent you become to a large extent.

Do academics endeavors take precedent over a skilled trade?
Does an aptitude in academics mean any more than having an aptitude for vocational skills?
There are arguments on both sides as to the importance of each role, and the level of contribution each makes towards the growth and stability of the economy and to the society.
Which do we need more or less of?
Neither, if we are practical as both plays an equal role moving the society forward.
As to the levels of compensation for both sides, this is another argument all by itself as each group complains bitterly of not being properly compensated for their skills.

We find competition and the lack of our country's technological growth making big impacts on our job markets, we now university grads taking over jobs traditionally held by less skilled people.
It’s getting scary out there as you now need CXC qualifications to apply for a job to pack bags in a supermarket (Hi-Lo chain), having a degree in chemistry, biology or math does not guarantee you a job, and a lot of grads end up teaching and even then, they have to requalify themselves.

Which is just the thing; both in academics and vocationally, your pursuit of either has to be geared towards something professionally oriented and relevant.
I know mechanics who have excelled in their field and have now become "Master Mechanics" working for BMW and Ford, they had to have a degree in their field to reach this level, which now becomes another point as vocational training now opens opportunity for academic achievement not only by choice but as a requirement for success in said field, as what you find is that higher levels of qualifications are needed for almost every job that is out there.
One has to stay on top of the game by constantly keeping oneself updated and qualified. I have friends who are currently pursuing their second masters program and have plans of doing a third.
The days of the fix-it man are over in this technologically advanced but disposable world; if your television is broke, you don't fix it, you buy a new one.
Gardeners are now landscape technicians and even uptown parents consider being a DJ a respectable career for their children.

Back to the question, we have now realized that the only way to guarantee our success and survival and that of our children, is to determine from very early what our strengths and weakness are and focus ourselves in whichever direction, whether it be academics or vocational and strategically plot a pathway that will ensure a viable and relevant career.

Izemi-Clem

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Good points Izemi.

Both approaches have their purpose and function, and they are complimentary I think. An example of this is in Information Technology. There's plenty of theory, abstract thinking, and problem solvinng skills which the academic approach to teaching Information Technology can impart. However, when it comes time to apply the learning to practical situations, it is necessary to be trained specific skills in order to be functional.

eg. A person can understand things such as finite state automata or algorithmic thinking, but if he doesn't know a programming language and how to operate a computer, he won't get to properly apply the learning and make a very good software developer.

I think more focus needs to be put on ensuring that students are exposed adequately to both kinds of learning. Some people have a greater aptitude for the academic approach, and some for the practical approach, but both sets can benefit from being exposed to the other.

I wish I'd been exposed to stuff like automechanics, or electrical work when I was younger. It's always good to have a skill like that. It helps you to be self-sufficient and not dependent on an employer. I know someone in the country who is a mason by trade, from humble beginnings, but today, he is very sucessful because his skills are in demand. He built himself a fine home, rivalling many of the big shots homes. I rate people like that.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail BCK

You post some very stimulating threads, prolific even :eusa_clap

You are right, they are complimentary and maybe that should be the focus of our educational system as Marcus Garvey had proposed; the emphasis being placed on academics, skills training and the arts to develop a more complete individual.
Our techincal schools come closetest to this model I think but we find it difficult to have the proper, enough working equipment and tools as well as trained teachers to really have it done properly.
I remember in high school not having enough tools in metal and woodwork classes and hardly any of us chose to do them in CXC.
Or was it GCE? :eusa_thin

When work men come to my house I pay close attention to what they are doing and ask enough questions, plus I make sure to buy tools here and there so that I am somewhat able to help myself with certain things.

One should always be striving to make himself as independent as possible by developing interests outside their normal sphere, as you said it might just become another career for you.

Izemi-Clem

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Hail BCK

You post some very stimulating threads, prolific even :eusa_clap
Respec' breddrin.



I remember in high school not having enough tools in metal and woodwork classes and hardly any of us chose to do them in CXC.
Or was it GCE? :eusa_thin

I was bummed out when I did Electronics at UWI because the lab equipment didn't work. That killed it for me. I didn't see the point if the practical stuff wasn't working.


When work men come to my house I pay close attention to what they are doing and ask enough questions, plus I make sure to buy tools here and there so that I am somewhat able to help myself with certain things.

One should always be striving to make himself as independent as possible by developing interests outside their normal sphere, as you said it might just become another career for you.

Izemi-Clem

It's unfortunate that tradecraft is looked down upon by so many. If the youths realized the potential that exists in learning a trade. Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, masons, metal workers, and tilers all make good livings. There was an article in the newspapers a while back about a gentleman who started out in masonry in Jamaica, then moved to England, and setup a booming business working on houses for even high profile clients. All that from learning a trade.