Rules to live by

[nester-san]

Agree or Disagree:

1) No intelligent man has any respect for an unjust law. He simply follows the eleventh commandment.


2) I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

:eusa_clap

[Jae]

Never place your hat farther than you can reach it.

[nuhsenutten]

he that hath ears let him hear...

[BlackCryptoKnight]

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
1 Corinthians 1:25 NIV

:eusa_pray



...

[nester-san]

I was actually asking opinions for MY Rules that I live by.

You know: AGREE OR DISAGREE

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Ooops ... :eusa_shif



;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Agree or Disagree:

1) No intelligent man has any respect for an unjust law. He simply follows the eleventh commandment.


2) I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

:eusa_clap

There's a fair amount of subjectivity in the determination of what is "unjust" or what is "obnoxious" when it comes to rules and laws. As such, these statements could be viewed as excuses for lawlesness by some.

[Xenocrates]

There's a fair amount of subjectivity in the determination of what is "unjust" or what is "obnoxious" when it comes to rules and laws. As such, these statements could be viewed as excuses for lawlesness by some.

- I concur. ;)

In fact, that reminds me of these:


Truth is knowledge.


Knowledge is relative, likewise, truth is relative.


The only truth, is that there is no truth.


- Thrassymachius, 364 A.D.

This has become the Lawyer's Mantra in modern law. Every evil is potentially good and every good potentially evil. It depends on how one is affected by the deed and by what means that defence is plausible. Concordantly, every act is potentially defensible, irrespective of how good or evil the act is perceived to be.

[nester-san]

Fair enough, so does that then allow for arguing the rules we are supposed to live by eg. 10 commandments,misc. Bible verses which tell you how to live or Govt's Rules (Give to Caesar what is Casesar's?)

Or do you all think some are absolute ?

What determines when we meekly obey, or when we do we if ever, follow the "eleventh commandment" ie. assume personal moral responsibility ir-respective of "rule of law" ?

[tiffany]

Fair enough, so does that then allow for arguing the rules we are supposed to live by eg. 10 commandments,misc. Bible verses which tell you how to live or Govt's Rules (Give to Caesar what is Casesar's?)

Or do you all think some are absolute ?

What determines when we meekly obey, or when we do we if ever, follow the "eleventh commandment" ie. assume personal moral responsibility ir-respective of "rule of law" ?
Personally, i believe that truth is relative not absolute..You'v just got to decide 4 urself, and deal with the consequences whether good or bad.;

[Xenocrates]

Tiffany's right:


Fair enough, so does that then allow for arguing the rules we are supposed to live by eg. 10 commandments,misc. Bible verses which tell you how to live or Govt's Rules (Give to Caesar what is Casesar's?)

- Absolutely! The most dangerous thing to do is BLINDLY believe without reason! If it indeed the truth, you should by ALL means question it. It should stand the test of sharp criticism and critique and come out as pure gold!

How can you otherwise determine something to be "the truth" if you don't test it?

[nester-san]

he he he, but it will still be relative to the perceiver, not an absolute truth!!

[BlackCryptoKnight]

he he he, but it will still be relative to the perceiver, not an absolute truth!!

The truth stands on its own, and is relative to nothing. A person's perception of truth is what is subjective.

[Xenocrates]

Then, by your arguments BCK, no one knows the truth. ;)

[nester-san]

exactamundo!!

"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

-Alistair Crowley

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is a moral utterance found in the Thelemic foundation scripture, which is called the Book of the Law.

"Do what thou wilt" is known as the Law of Thelema.

In Rabelais this rule was "fay çe que vouldras", French for "do what you will."

In Crowley's writing, the Law of Thelema is explained in terms of True Will, the ultimate spiritual core or quintessence of each person, which has a divinely self-ordained path through the world of experience. "Do what thou wilt" refers not to the outer emotional and intellectual self but to this sacred inner core of personal divinity. Often will is contrasted with whim, and the knowing and doing of the True Will is painted not in terms of license and ease but of responsibility and hard work.

Since this new law replaces outdated moral codes based around sins and forbidden acts, a person knowing and doing the will might appear to be sinful from a traditional viewpoint. In Crowley's view the Thelemite is following a demanding code requiring great personal integrity even while, for instance, making love in ways that would be illegal in oppressive societies.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Then, by your arguments BCK, no one knows the truth. ;)

It's not that no one knows the truth, but that some don't acknowledge the truth as truth. While some view non-truth, as truth. Truth is objective. It either is, or it isn't. It either happened, or it didn't happen. Our perception of truth is dependent on its perceived evidence. Evidence may exist, but some reject it, some don't see it, and some can't understand it.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

exactamundo!!

"Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

-Alistair Crowley

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is a moral utterance found in the Thelemic foundation scripture, which is called the Book of the Law.

"Do what thou wilt" is known as the Law of Thelema.

In Rabelais this rule was "fay çe que vouldras", French for "do what you will."

In Crowley's writing, the Law of Thelema is explained in terms of True Will, the ultimate spiritual core or quintessence of each person, which has a divinely self-ordained path through the world of experience. "Do what thou wilt" refers not to the outer emotional and intellectual self but to this sacred inner core of personal divinity. Often will is contrasted with whim, and the knowing and doing of the True Will is painted not in terms of license and ease but of responsibility and hard work.

Since this new law replaces outdated moral codes based around sins and forbidden acts, a person knowing and doing the will might appear to be sinful from a traditional viewpoint. In Crowley's view the Thelemite is following a demanding code requiring great personal integrity even while, for instance, making love in ways that would be illegal in oppressive societies.
Sounds like a fancy way of skipping around moral laws.

[nester-san]

....True Will, the ultimate spiritual core or quintessence of each person, which has a divinely self-ordained path through the world of experience. "Do what thou wilt" refers not to the outer emotional and intellectual self but to this sacred inner core of personal divinity. Often will is contrasted with whim, and the knowing and doing of the True Will is painted not in terms of license and ease but of responsibility and hard work.


Why you must forever take out of context brotherman!!

[Xenocrates]

We're delving into the deep domain of epistemology here. :icon_mrgr Let's plunge:


It's not that no one knows the truth, but that some don't acknowledge the truth as truth.

- Correction: Some don't acknowledge A truth as THE truth. Remember, truth is relative. If there is an ultimate truth that stands on its own, what evidence do we have to prove that this truth is THE truth? Whatever evidence we find will be subjective, since it would be limited to the domain of the provable simulacrum. The provability of anything we know, is relative to our own understanding (hence the latin expression: "Temet Nosce" - Know thyself). This is why there is no truth that is absolutely provable, and thus all truth is absolutely relative.

For example, it is possible to prove that 1 + 1 = 0 AND also to prove that 1 + 1 = 2, all using the same provable, predictable laws of mathematics. So if it is provable evidence is that we would use to accept any truth, then that evidence is really a matter of our own interpretation - hence the relativity of all truth!

The basis upon which a man accepts any truth is a function of the depth of a man's faith. Men who have little faith require more evidence. Men who have more faith require less evidence. However, faith defines our acceptance of any truth.

If I asked you: "What is on the other side of a black hole?" Could you answer me? Probably not with absolute certainty. But from your observation of the quantum mechanics of a black hole, you may posit that a black hole is not a portal, but rather an incredibly dense event horizon...

...but you could be wrong! Maybe our technology isn't advanced enough to detect what might be on the other side! Maybe a blackhole IS a portal, but based on the evidence that we collected, we assume that it is just an event horizon. We have faith, based on our evidence of such! We therefore accept, based on our observation, that it is such and such!

Some alien race might be out there laughing at us being overwhelmed by the enormity of the situation. They know the truth that a blackhole is <insert truth here> and have used to cross the galaxy multiple times.

So what we accept is based on faith. For this reason, no truth is absolute. All truth is relative. If there is indeed any truth at all, it is this:

There is no spoon truth. ;)

[AngelsKiss]

The truth is I find we often say the truth is relative so as to suit our own purposes :icon_mrgr

[tiffany]

The truth is I find we often say the truth is relative so as to suit our own purposes :icon_mrgr
hMM GOOD POINT..bUT DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING IS ABSOLUTE? FOR EXAMPLE: WHEN THE PRIESTS WERE SAYING HOW NO ONE SHOULD EVER WORK ON THE SABBATH,THEN JESUS SAID THAT IF OUR BROTHER'S DONKEY WAS STUCK IN A WHOLE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,ON A SABBATH, WE SHOULD HELP..SO THERE, THE PRIESTS BELIEVED THAT EVERY THING IN THE BIBLE SHOULD BE SEEN AS ABSOLUTE AND FINAL, WHEREAS JESUS GAVE EXEPTIONS.... WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

[AngelsKiss]

hMM GOOD POINT..bUT DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING IS ABSOLUTE? FOR EXAMPLE: WHEN THE PRIESTS WERE SAYING HOW NO ONE SHOULD EVER WORK ON THE SABBATH,THEN JESUS SAID THAT IF OUR BROTHER'S DONKEY WAS STUCK IN A WHOLE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,ON A SABBATH, WE SHOULD HELP..SO THERE, THE PRIESTS BELIEVED THAT EVERY THING IN THE BIBLE SHOULD BE SEEN AS ABSOLUTE AND FINAL, WHEREAS JESUS GAVE EXEPTIONS.... WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS?
It's not so much about absolutes, it's more about human nature. Even if something was proven to be the absolute truth there will always be someone there who will try to twist it to suit their purpose. Not unlike your Sabath theory. It wasn't so much about the truth but trying to set Christ up to fall. Unfortunately they underestimate who they were dealing with:)

[Xenocrates]

Aaaagh! Capslock! Bad manners!

We've already had that discussion Tiff. It can be found here (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2322&highlight=sabbath). Enjoy. ;)

[tiffany]

caps lock? whats wrong with capslock, i'm sorry

[AngelsKiss]

caps lock? whats wrong with capslock, i'm sorry
LOL you need to turn it off?:D

[AngelsKiss]

Sorry I was being my usual bad self. Capslock in chat or BBS means you are shouting. I didn't take it as that since very rarely ppl do mean that muchless even know that's what it means :)

[tiffany]

It's not so much about absolutes, it's more about human nature. Even if something was proven to be the absolute truth there will always be someone there who will try to twist it to suit their purpose. Not unlike your Sabath theory. It wasn't so much about the truth but trying to set Christ up to fall. Unfortunately they underestimate who they were dealing with:)
I wasn't talking about the fact that the priests were trying to set up Christ to fall, I was just saying that what He said generally means that there may be exeptions, and not everything is absolute.:icon_arro Xenocrates, Although i mentioned the word Sabbath, it doesn't mean that what was said in a previous post is the smae thing. The point I tried to make was not exactly mentioned in that post.

[tiffany]

Sorry I was being my usual bad self. Capslock in chat or BBS means you are shouting. I didn't take it as that since very rarely ppl do mean that muchless even know that's what it means :)
Oh my bad, sorry i didn't know.. Thanx

[AngelsKiss]

I wasn't talking about the fact that the priests were trying to set up Christ to fall, I was just saying that what He said generally means that there may be exeptions, and not everything is absolute.:icon_arro

I get what you are saying, how ever the point I am still trying to make is that life isn't so much about the truth or absolutes, it's more about human nature and how we try to please ourselves or live our lives.

In so doing no matter if the truth hit us square in the face, if it doesn't suit our purposes, we often will try to find away out of it or try to twist it to suit our purposes. Even to the point of saying that that it is relative.

It's about human nature, it's about who we are as individuals, it's about how we see life, it's about our beliefs, etc.

[Xenocrates]

Even to the point of saying that that it is relative.

- That's assuming ofcourse that some absolute provable truth exists. :)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- That's assuming ofcourse that some absolute provable truth exists. :)
All truth will be proven absolutely true in due course. ;)

[nester-san]

.....It's about human nature, it's about who we are as individuals, it's about how we see life, it's about our beliefs, etc.


Which boils down to being morally by your own belief systems responsible for your own actions....The Eleventh Commandment!

or simply.. Do as thou wilt...

That seems to be a recurring theme here, since there is no absolute truth for one and all, because even as the aliens laugh at us, others maybe laughing at them...and so on ad infinitum...

So at the end of the day, the question is unanswered ?

You basically do what thou will; be it Christian, Hedonist, Philosopher, Nillist,Anarchist, Lawmaker, Lawbreaker....

So what binds all these types into a social structure (which contains some rules at odds with every belief) that allows one set to tolerate their neighbour's without the usual violence and chaos you get from mixing the various incompatible belief systems ?

Since we are all basically doing what we will ?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

The truth is I find we often say the truth is relative so as to suit our own purposes
I agree AK. :eusa_clap

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Which boils down to being morally by your own belief systems responsible for your own actions....The Eleventh Commandment!

or simply.. Do as thou wilt...

That seems to be a recurring theme here, since there is no absolute truth for one and all, because even as the aliens laugh at us, others maybe laughing at them...and so on ad infinitum...

So at the end of the day, the question is unanswered ?

You basically do what thou will; be it Christian, Hedonist, Philosopher, Nillist,Anarchist, Lawmaker, Lawbreaker....

So what binds all these types into a social structure (which contains some rules at odds with every belief) that allows one set to tolerate their neighbour's without the usual violence and chaos you get from mixing the various incompatible belief systems ?

Since we are all basically doing what we will ?

I had started another thread about subjective vs. objective morality. (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2630) I think similar thinking can be applied to the question of subjective vs. absolute objective truth.

If there is a question as to whether a tree fell, the truth is either that it fell or it didn't fall. Different people may have different perspectives dependent on their circumstances, but at the end of the day, the tree either fell, or it didn't fall.

[nester-san]

Is morality as cut and dried though ?

Nester-San plunges the depths to bring up this ancient relic of a question..

Kill Hitler to save over 10 million lives ?
Or
Kill the assassin who killed Archduke Ferdinand and triggered World War I, which led to WWII ?

Assuming fate would not have ordained some other even more creatively violent and painfull way to get rid of so many so quickly.

Would those killings be justifiable, thereby breaking not only Religious law, but Govt, and for most personal moral laws?

Human morality cannot be that simple, but blind adherance to rules/laws/etc turn us into trees that just fall...

[Izemi-Clem]

The truth is I find we often say the truth is relative so as to suit our own purposes

I agree AK.
I second that

I believe truth is absolute, we just don't know the entire truth.
And while we search for the entire truth we must accept our limitations.
Our progression towards the entire truth is done on a developmental basis.
As mankind progresses, the boundaries of our limitations and overstanding are expanded; it is our purpose.
Each generation, each age has the responsibility to question, to challenge and redefine what has been left to us; it is how we progress.

The absolutes which ARE with us now, are used as building blocks for our generation and the next on mankind's journey towards the entire absolute truth.

Would those killings be justifiable, thereby breaking not only Religious law, but Govt, and for most personal moral laws?

Human morality cannot be that simple, but blind adherance to rules/laws/etc turn us into trees that just fall...

:icon_arro Nester-San lets take a simpler view

If the right hand offends the left hand, cut it off.
Does the rights and preservation of the general masses have precedence over the rights of a few?
We owe our very existence to the few who have made sacrifices and paid the ultimate price.
Sadly life is what it is. :(
We strive to make such sacrifices unnecessary.

Izemi-Clem

[Xenocrates]

All truth will be proven absolutely true in due course. ;)

- Isn't faith the final determinant? Whether or not that truth is truth depends on our faith doesn't it?

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


- Isn't faith the final determinant? Whether or not that truth is truth depends on our faith doesn't it?

But isn't the "Truth" what it is ? Regardless of what we believe, that will not change the truth from being what it is.
It stands alone by itself, unlike a theory which stands until another proven theory comes along to despell it.

But maybe I'm thinking too singular here, as to the entire truth, I have accepted and resigned myself to the fact that in my lifetime I will never know the entire truth.
So in the mean time while I trod this earth I will live by faith and allow my conscience to guide me.

Izemi-Clem

[Xenocrates]

But maybe I'm thinking too singular here, as to the entire truth, I have accepted and resigned myself to the fact that in my lifetime I will never know the entire truth. So in the mean time while I trod this earth I will live by faith and allow my conscience to guide me.

- :eusa_clap And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the matter.

Nobody, save for our creator, knows the whole, full, true, truth. What we have is bits and pieces of it - hence its relativity. The best we can do, is have faith in what we believe, that it is indeed the truth. It will be proven in time, but in the interim, it is our conscience that will be the ultimate determinant (which only accentuates the relativity of truth).

Master Clem? You are true genius my friend. Awesome. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/2thumbs.gif

Thread done.

[nester-san]

Hail



But isn't the "Truth" was it is ? Regardless of what we believe, that will not change the truth from being what it is.
It stands alone by itself, unlike a theory which stands until another proven theory comes along to despell it.

But maybe I'm thinking too singular here, as to the entire truth, I have accepted and resigned myself to the fact that in my lifetime I will never know the entire truth.
So in the mean time while I trod this earth I will live by faith and allow my conscience to guide me.

Izemi-Clem

Izemi,

My brother, you are agreeing with my premise, You choose to trod the earth, living by faith and conscience, as do I.

The statement was never meant to be a for or against God/christianity/Govt,

I was just saying that at the end of the day most of us follow our internal personal codes of morality.

EVERY single argument here is supporting that!!

BCK = If GOVT says burn your bible and Give up God, you are not gonna "give to caesar what is caesars's" You Will turn to your eleventh commandment.

Izemi = You live in a "christian" country, where pork eating is allowed, your personal morality says that is intolerable, so you do not tolerate it.

There are some who would take those words to extremes, but I still say we all follow personal moral codes, except for the extremely foolish, who just follow...

[Brownsugar]

Leave people business alone......and mind yuh own:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap