Of Gods and Men

[Xenocrates]

Stemming from a turn of discussion (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3112&page=7) in a previous thread:


I will pay that price gladly!

- Are you telling me that you don't enjoy your life at all?


some people have it that they did not ask to be made.

- Then they should all kill themselves, since their life means nothing to them. Wouldn't you agree?

I mean, let's all be reasonable here. If we enjoy this thing called "life", to whom are we to be grateful for it?

[ramesh]

That's like saying a slave should be thankful for his accommodation to his master. He did not ask to be a slave.

Or like sheep thanful for glades of grass when his shepherd's true purpose is to guide him to the abbatoir. ;)

[Twinkie]

If we enjoy this thing called "life", to whom are we to be grateful for it?
God maybe!

I love love love my life. I've never contemplated suicide because it's a gaurantee I'll go to hell. :icon_twis I could change my ways and repent now, but not after I drink vodka and kerosene!:icon_eek: :eusa_shhh

[BlackCryptoKnight]

If God made everything and gave us life, then He is worthy to be worshipped simply because of it. When someone gives you a gift, you should show your gratitude towards them. Worship is simply our way of telling God thanks for the gift of life. True, we didn't ask to be made, and true, there are things we don't understand, control, or even like about our lives as they are now. That doesn't' mean that life itself, and the opportunity to experience happiness isn't a gift worthy of gratitude.

The way I see it, God didn't have to make me, He chose to. He doesn't have to sustain me, yet He chooses to. I've done all sorts of messed up things, yet He keeps me around and gives me the opportunity to improve my life and behaviour. How can I not show my gratitude to Him?

[ramesh]

So I should bow down and worship my parents as well? They gave me life too.

[Bahama Mama]

[Just a thought]

Do we even need to show gratitude, if it will not in anyway alter the path of our destiny (good or bad)? What functional purpose would showing gratitude serve?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

So I should bow down and worship my parents as well? They gave me life too.
Wrong. Your parents didn't create life itself. Your parents carried out a function designed by the Creator. Your parents should be honoured, respected and loved for the part they played, but worship is acknowledgement due only to the Supreme Creator - the source of it all.

It's about the appropriateness of and the kind of acknowledgement given to entities for what they have done. Worship is the highest level of acknowledgement reserved for the one without whom nothing would exist.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

[Just a thought]

Do we even need to show gratitude, if it will not in anyway alter the path of our destiny (good or bad)? What functional purpose would showing gratitude serve?

In otherwords, what do we get out of it? Should we only do things from which we derive a benefit? Should we only be motivated to do things on the basis of what we get out of it?

We need to show gratitude if we are to truly derive the benefits of life intended for us. Kindof circular right? But that's how it's setup. I think it does affect that path we take in life. If it didn't affect us one way or another, we wouldn't need to as there would not be any consequence to us for not doing it, but doing so would still be fair in my opinion, and would demonstrate true love for the Creator. It's a good thing. I don't see anything negative coming from it.

[Malloc-X]

i like the way this thread is heading, the dark lord is probably laughin at nester and others like him, lets make him laugh even harder. life is fun once u have decent enuff frenz and a good family. god should be worshiped. i cant beleive that people are still ungrateful after all he has done for us. the dark lord is extremely powerful, look how easily he blinds us from the truth and that is why we are havin this discussion

[nester-san]

What Dark lord ?
Dude, Stop believing fairy tales, you put your teeth under your bed too huh ?

I never said I do not believe in a CREATOR!!

I do not believe in ANY religion, nor do I believe my or any other persons purpose is to be in eternal worship of an entity who essentially is a skillfull clockmaker.

I am in Awe of creation and the world and the universe, everytime I see the fog covered mountains, or the sea from my balcony, or just a set of goats playing in the grass.

I do not believe all this is to make me a mouthpeice for praise for an entity who is not in need of it.

I believe, as I have stated time and again, that our purpose is to attain this power and become creators ourselves.

Or if this entity is simply a huge intricate machine, sowing life through the universe, find out who made it.

Who or what is GOD, and become equal, or find out where God came from, and go there.

You guys need to read the "God Emperor of Dune" to see what I mean.

[Malloc-X]

the dark lord is satan, and wouldn't my head need to be put under the bed aswell?

[Xenocrates]

That's like saying a slave should be thankful for his accommodation to his master. He did not ask to be a slave.

- That's a bad analogy. Backra masters didn't make slaves. They forced free people into bondage. God on the other hand made people. People didn't exist before God's will became flesh. Thus, no forcing of a conscious being ever took place in the before and after state.

In fact, the fundamental problem with this analogy is that while God is always in complete control, Bakra masters were not (slaves ran away, gained freedom, etc. etc.). God's control mechanism is so brilliant, that even when we think we got choice and freedom, we are still fulfilling his pre-scripted predicate. It's like we live in a far more sophisticated rat cage - one from which freedom would mean certain death. We need the rat cage to live! That's control! ;)


So I should bow down and worship my parents as well? They gave me life too.

- Well, the comparison is flawed Ramesh. In fact, in addition to what BCK said, not even when we clone stem cells and spur the development of life, we are still not creating life. All that we've done is tinkered with the gears of life and figured out how to make them rotate without using the knob on the clock. When we can make the gears, the flywheels, the springs from virtually no raw materials whatsoever, then (and only then) we can claim that dubious honour.


Do we even need to show gratitude, if it will not in anyway alter the path of our destiny (good or bad)?

- Alter? Or Fulfill? Isn't anything you do right now already en route towards fulfilling that destiny? ;)


What functional purpose would showing gratitude serve?

- Only the original manufacturer knows how to keep the clock going ad infinitum. Cutting oneself off from God is like cutting a rose from a garden. It will only retain some semblance of life for so long before it withers and dies.


I do not believe all this is to make me a mouthpeice for praise for an entity who is not in need of it.

- Who're you to say that He doesn't? What is a God without praise and worship? Nothing. In fact, I daresay, that worship is hard coded into our psyche. We're merely fulfilling a deep psychological predicate set out in our brains. It takes a significantly counter-forced amount of thinking to undo that. I say so, because it takes guts and pure undulated dark genius to lie to onesself, so much so that we actually believe it.


I believe, as I have stated time and again, that our purpose is to attain this power and become creators ourselves.

- Wait nuh? Me soon start the thread fi yuh! :icon_mrgr I'm just gathering some materials. Just hang in there.

[ramesh]

But why should we be thankful for life when, as easily it is given, it is taken away? Murderers and thieves, madmen and wandering armies plunder and kill innocent God fearing people, death and disease, life is not forever and not without turmoil so why be thankful? If this is caused by the Devil, why doesn't God snuff him out? Surely He is that powerful?

[nester-san]

Who're you to say that He doesn't? What is a God without praise and worship? Nothing. In fact, I daresay, that worship is hard coded into our psyche. We're merely fulfilling a deep psychological predicate set out in our brains. It takes a significantly counter-forced amount of thinking to undo that. I say so, because it takes guts and pure undulated dark genius to lie to onesself, so much so that we actually believe it.


Who says that he does? As one of the automations yourself, you can ONLY speculate, just like me! :eusa_naug

I am sure by even contemplating what God wants you are violating some religious code somewhere!

An all powerfull entity, to whom time,space,matter, and energy are one and the same is in need of nothing. (also speculation :D )

So if God needs worship, he cannot be perfect, since perfection requires nothing and is complete onto itself.

btw.

A lot of Wiccans worship nature/creation, are they praising God, or just the fact that it is not the "Christian" God they worship/praise doom them to the pit?

[Bahama Mama]

In otherwords, what do we get out of it? Should we only do things from which we derive a benefit? Should we only be motivated to do things on the basis of what we get out of it?

We need to show gratitude if we are to truly derive the benefits of life intended for us. Kindof circular right? But that's how it's setup. I think it does affect that path we take in life. If it didn't affect us one way or another, we wouldn't need to as there would not be any consequence to us for not doing it, but doing so would still be fair in my opinion, and would demonstrate true love for the Creator. It's a good thing. I don't see anything negative coming from it.


I hear you BCK and I agree with most of what you are saying, but alas their are alot of people that never derive the benefits of this life, and not because of anything bad they have done. A child that is born into a war torn environment, forced into sexual exploitation, and dead at the age of 16 from AIDS given to her by her assaulters. That was her lot in life, sadly. She didnt have the good fortune of being born in a civil society where human rights were protected. Her greatest benefit would be to leave the misery of her life, and hopefully experience tranquility in the after life. If she is void of gratitude, who can really blame her?

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

:icon_arro BM

We certainly cannot blame her, we should be blaming ourselves, collectively we are responsible for the explotation, degredation and livity of not only mankind itself but also that of our planet Earth.
Until we learn that if the least of us is in need then we are all in need, until we see ourselves as all being equal and we can never be truly free and prosperus unless we all are, the religions of greed and domination will hold sway over the Purpose of Humanity, which is because we have yet to place ourselves over our physical nature and evolve as spiritual beings (it is our purpose). We continue to feed and nuture the worst of ourselves because we are vain and selfish, not realising that it is ourselves collectively that can save us and our future.

It may sounds corny and trite but it is only the spiritual side of ourselves that will allow us to make these seemingly complicated prospects of Unity, Peace and Love as simple as it really is.

Many of us, find ourselves conflicted with our spirituality and or physical nature and as result we find a belief system that will resolve this conflict. If our belief system is found wanting then our foundation crumbles and we find ourselvess in further turmoil (physically and spiritually), we blame the belief system and tear at it every chance we get rather than to expand on the truths we have learned and make ourselves receptive to further truths which are common in everything there is (science, philosophy and nature).

Izemi-Clem

[Manu]

Interesting poin of view Izemi. I had a problem with this predestined crap because it would mean that some people are meant to go to hell. I didn't take the time to realise that when God made this Earth....it was perfect and it was us...not even the devil...us who screwed it up and so some of our fellow man will never get to experience the fullness of life let alone the joys of heaven.

As for Nester, that is YOUR definition of perfection. Surely you're ASSUMING that your thoughts and God's thoughts are same and therefore your definition or perfection is on par with his ;).

[nester-san]

As for Nester, that is YOUR definition of perfection. Surely you're ASSUMING that your thoughts and God's thoughts are same and therefore your definition or perfection is on par with his

That is EXACTLY what I said, OH NON READER OF POSTS


Who says that he does? As one of the automations yourself, you can ONLY speculate, just like me!

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I hear you BCK and I agree with most of what you are saying, but alas their are alot of people that never derive the benefits of this life, and not because of anything bad they have done. A child that is born into a war torn environment, forced into sexual exploitation, and dead at the age of 16 from AIDS given to her by her assaulters. That was her lot in life, sadly. She didnt have the good fortune of being born in a civil society where human rights were protected. Her greatest benefit would be to leave the misery of her life, and hopefully experience tranquility in the after life. If she is void of gratitude, who can really blame her?

Job was faced with a similar situation (losing "everything" and suffering greatly) and was faced with pretty much the same question - whether to curse God and die (show ingratitude for the life God gave him). Job realized that despite the negatives, his life was still a gift from God, and he would be at fault if he did not appreciate the life God gave Him. Yes Job knew what God was about, and so he was able to keep things in perspective. Many people don't know God and won't have that perspective, but God is fair, and those who go through life without the opportunity to know Him or hear His word, He will treat them fairly.

So no we can't blame that child for her despair at her situation if she didn't know God and what His intentions are. However, for those who know, or had the opportunity to know, it's all on them as to whether they accept or reject God and are grateful or ungrateful for His gifts.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I never said I do not believe in a CREATOR!!

I do not believe in ANY religion, nor do I believe my or any other persons purpose is to be in eternal worship of an entity who essentially is a skillfull clockmaker.

I am in Awe of creation and the world and the universe, everytime I see the fog covered mountains, or the sea from my balcony, or just a set of goats playing in the grass.

I do not believe all this is to make me a mouthpeice for praise for an entity who is not in need of it.

I believe, as I have stated time and again, that our purpose is to attain this power and become creators ourselves.

Or if this entity is simply a huge intricate machine, sowing life through the universe, find out who made it.

Who or what is GOD, and become equal, or find out where God came from, and go there.

You guys need to read the "God Emperor of Dune" to see what I mean.

You say you are in awe of Creation and that you do believe in a Creator. Do you feel gratitude to the Creator for what He has created? Do you think there is anything wrong with acknowledging Him for what He has done and showing appreciation?

Where did this idea of the created becoming equal to the Creator come from? How is that possible?

That kind of theory makes for nice Sci Fi stories, but that's about it.

[nester-san]

That kind of theory makes for nice Sci Fi stories, but that's about it.

I believe in Science,nature, and a creator, you follow a religion whose rules eg. purgatory (created during the middle ages, so people could give money to church so dead relatives could be purged of sin and allowed into heaven), was written by people who were not present, who edited as needed to suit the times they lived in. another example?
Hell is now defined as living without the love of GOD, and not the eternal tormented suffering of Bible, to appeal to todays meeker churchgoers.


Mr. My God created the universe in 7 LITERAL DAYS.
Mr. God created Adam and Eve ALONE, but can't explain how their son found people in the land of nod. LOL
Mr. Hey God loves us all, but if you don't worship, you gonna die and suffer eternally, even if you never heard of God, due to geographical constraints.

I would not ever believe in any such religion or worship any God defined by any such religion or any other.

And I believe in fairy tales LOL.

I feel no gratitude whatsoever, I do love this whole universe and almost everything in it, but that is where my "gratitude" ends. Acknowledgment does not mean worship,neither does appreciation.


The bible is as accurate as the Koran, or any other thing written by HUMANS.

I want to seek the creator, and find the TRUTH, where did he come from, how can we (everyone in the universe, not just the bowers and scrapers) become like that.

[Xenocrates]

If our belief system is found wanting then our foundation crumbles and we find ourselvess in further turmoil (physically and spiritually), we blame the belief system and tear at it every chance we get rather than to expand on the truths we have learned and make ourselves receptive to further truths which are common in everything there is (science, philosophy and nature).

- Nicely put. I think this is succinct description of most people who've closed their mind to religion. It also shows why their disdain of a belief system is also fundamentally flawed:


Who says that he does? As one of the automations yourself, you can ONLY speculate, just like me!

- However, to answer Nester-sama's concern:

Is a man a father until he has sired/raised a child? If God had no creation to worship him, he'd just be nothing more than a potentially all-powerful being. ;) The very word "God" insinuates worship.


I am sure by even contemplating what God wants you are violating some religious code somewhere!

- What religious code? You're grabbing at straws aren't you? :p


An all powerfull entity, to whom time,space,matter, and energy are one and the same is in need of nothing. (also speculation )

- The question you should ask yourself Nester, is "WHY?". Why did God create all this stuff?


So if God needs worship, he cannot be perfect, since perfection requires nothing and is complete onto itself.

- There's a fundamental flaw in your logic. Everything that exists came from God. So in effect, God is glorifying himself. That, is perfect power. Even the angels in heaven are constantly in a position of worship, crying "Glory, Glory" ad infinitum. Look at the mansions of the world's previous empire leaders. The mansions were a glorification of the heads of those empires. See any interesting correlations?


A lot of Wiccans worship nature/creation, are they praising God, or just the fact that it is not the "Christian" God they worship/praise doom them to the pit?

- If they worship the creation, instead of the creator, what do you expect?

[Xenocrates]

...you follow a religion whose rules eg. purgatory (created during the middle ages, so people could give money to church so dead relatives could be purged of sin and allowed into heaven), was written by people who were not present, who edited as needed to suit the times they lived in.

- In defence of BCK's position, you can't make a clean cut comparison between Christianity and Roman Chatholicism like that. Roman Chatholicism is essentially a cult of the christian faith. Many of the fundamental principles of Christianity have been severely convoluted by Roman Chatholicism to benefit the political agenda of the then rampaging Roman Empire.

That's the same thing as saying that the Taliban's extremist interpretation of the Quran is an exemplification of the fundamentally flawed structure of the Muslim faith. Religion has always been used by men to control masses through political propaganda. The Roman Empire did it, and so did the Taliban. These two entities are mutually evil in their own right. All it does is make men evil, not the tool they use to carry out their evil plans.

Guns don't kill people...


Hell is now defined as living without the love of GOD, and not the eternal tormented suffering of Bible, to appeal to todays meeker churchgoers.

- That depends on whom you heard the definition. Logically hell can only be one of two things:

1. Eternal torment forever
2. One time Summary destruction

Revelation's definition seems a lot more wholistic than the other clues strewn throughout the bible. It alludes to #2 - where hell and everything in it is destroyed forever. So there is no eternal torment. Eternal suggests that it goes on forever.

I suggest that you read the Bible for yourself instead of running off based on what some folks said. ;)


Mr. My God created the universe in 7 LITERAL DAYS.

- Aw c'mon. What is a day? Scientifically, a day is a measurement of one complete revolution of the earth. When the earth was just formed, it was making several thousand revolutions in today's 24 hour period (being bombarded by other bodies which gave it its current definition). But I'm sure you already knew this and realise that, according to scripture:


For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

- So you were just being cynical, right? :p


Mr. God created Adam and Eve ALONE, but can't explain how their son found people in the land of nod. LOL

- Are you saying that it was unreasonable that Adam and Eve had other children? They did!


Mr. Hey God loves us all, but if you don't worship, you gonna die and suffer eternally, even if you never heard of God, due to geographical constraints.

- If I recall clearly, BCK did say:


Many people don't know God and won't have that perspective, but God is fair, and those who go through life without the opportunity to know Him or hear His word, He will treat them fairly.

- C'mon nester. You're making some unusual mistakes here. Are you ok dude? :icon_mrgr


And I believe in fairy tales LOL.

- Ok, I'm going to start the thread. Let's go (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=63827#post63827)!

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I believe in Science,nature, and a creator, you follow a religion whose rules eg. purgatory (created during the middle ages, so people could give money to church so dead relatives could be purged of sin and allowed into heaven), was written by people who were not present, who edited as needed to suit the times they lived in. another example?
Hell is now defined as living without the love of GOD, and not the eternal tormented suffering of Bible, to appeal to todays meeker churchgoers.
I don't follow any belief system that recognizes or proposes that there is anything named or functioning like purgatory. I am not a Roman Catholic. Nor do I believe that Hell is living without the love of God or eternal torment, I believe that "Hell" is the event which takes place when Jesus returns when the wicked are resurrected (second resurrection) and are consumed by fire (as outlined in Revelations).

Recognize that not all Christians believe the same things, so don't assume that one Christian is the same as another.


Mr. My God created the universe in 7 LITERAL DAYS.
Mr. God created Adam and Eve ALONE, but can't explain how their son found people in the land of nod. LOL
Mr. Hey God loves us all, but if you don't worship, you gonna die and suffer eternally, even if you never heard of God, due to geographical constraints.

I would not ever believe in any such religion or worship any God defined by any such religion or any other.

And I believe in fairy tales LOL.

I feel no gratitude whatsoever, I do love this whole universe and almost everything in it, but that is where my "gratitude" ends. Acknowledgment does not mean worship,neither does appreciation.


The bible is as accurate as the Koran, or any other thing written by HUMANS.

I want to seek the creator, and find the TRUTH, where did he come from, how can we (everyone in the universe, not just the bowers and scrapers) become like that.
How do you propose to find your answers? Every theory you have put forward didn't originate with you. It came from some other human whose work you read.

[ramesh]

Does anyone know why God doesn't snuff out the Devil? I'm sure He could just 'snap' His fingers and the Devil will be no more. Why the long charade?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Does anyone know why God doesn't snuff out the Devil? I'm sure He could just 'snap' His fingers and the Devil will be no more. Why the long charade?

Lemme try explaining:

Sure, God could eliminate the devil, and anyone for that matter, who opposes Him. He has the power to do this. But what kind of God would He be if He just wiped out the opposition at the first sign of insurgence? He would be in essence, forcing His will on His creations rather than allowing them to have free will to chose follow Him. Satan accuses God of being exactly like that. He makes the case that God is worshipped not out of true love, but because He forces His creations to do so. Satan makes the case that God is worshipped only because worshippers get blessings ie. if things weren't going rosy for them, they would forsake God (hence the whole Job incident).

God truly loves all His creations, and does not force them to chose Him. In a sense, what's going on with earth and Satan is kindof like God being on trial.
The two choices are presented to man, and he choses - God or sin (it really does boil down to 2 choices). The devil pushes the sin option.

God will eliminate sin, and all who chose it, but He will do so in His own time. He will ensure that all mankind (as far as possible) has had the opportunity to make that choice, and has had the opportunity to obtain salvation by chosing God. When that time comes, it will be like when a court case is being wrapped up and judgement is being pronounced. All the evidence would have been in, and everything regarding the decisions made will be transparent and clear to all.

If you know God, and accept Him, then He can give you the strength to perseve despite the devil and his machinations.

[ramesh]

So, what you're saying is: The Devil (Satan) is the cause of all our ills. God has the power to rid us of Evil, yet He will do it on his own time and let us suffer/die/be raped/suffer disease while He does His merry thing? I thought we were forgiven all our sins......or were we?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

So, what you're saying is: The Devil (Satan) is the cause of all our ills. God has the power to rid us of Evil, yet He will do it on his own time and let us suffer/die/be raped/suffer disease while He does His merry thing? I thought we were forgiven all our sins......or were we?

God works on His own schedule, not ours. Yes, the devil is the cause of our ills, and yes, God has the power to rid the world of sin. Yes, in this life, we suffer many things because of sin, but despite all of that, God still loves us and shows us His love in many ways. He offers us salvation and forgiveness for our sins if we want to accept it. Forgiveness doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of sin in this life. This life is not all there is. When Christ returns and God's judgement is carried out, those who have been faithful to God will receive eternal life, and be free from sin and suffering forever.

Whatever we go through here on earth, however horrible it may be, will become insignificant when Christ returns, provided we are faithful to God and go to Heaven. God is fair. He rewards everyone according to their faithfulness.

[ramesh]

I thought sin was caused by the Devil? If so, eliminating the Devil would eliminate sin, right? Or is Satan a necessary evil?

[nester-san]

Xeno, at the end of the day, all you are doing is still speculation, no matter how many arguments you care to bring up.

I said all of that to simply say, following a book written by MAN, which is so vague and general (like those idiotic "ghost whisperers"), as to appeal to whatever truth an individual cares to find is silly.

Everyone and anyone can look in the bible and find anything in defence of any act.

Which is why I said to BCK loong time aback, argue with me on your personal moral views, irrespective of where they originate, do not quote the bible, since I immediately disregard it as mythos.

If you follow the bible then you say thou shalt not kill, I also say thou shalt not kill, because I know the value of human life, and of life in general. I do not need the bible to tell me that. You should not need the bible to tell you how to live with others. If the bible said "kill,maim, slaughter", would you do it? Even if it felt bad internally to do so ?

I have said it before, if I lived back then, and a prophet said, kill every living thing in that valley cause God said so, I would have told him to go soak his head.

You are arguing not based on god's word, since god till not tell you so directly, and anything indirectly inferred is MERE SPECULATION and OPINION based on your own beliefs, which are not mine, nor never will be.

I am speculating too, but I am not nor will not fly into a quivering, shivering foetal ball if I am proven wrong. (BCK, cough,cough, BCK)

[nester-san]

Whatever we go through here on earth, however horrible it may be, will become insignificant when Christ returns, provided we are faithful to God and go to Heaven. God is fair. He rewards everyone according to their faithfulness.

Faithfullness in what, in him or his beliefs?

Xeno differs from you in his beliefs, even though you are both christians, I have read arguments back and forth.

Do you both go to heaven, or are those differences enough to doom one of you ?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Faithfullness in what, in him or his beliefs?

Xeno differs from you in his beliefs, even though you are both christians, I have read arguments back and forth.

Do you both go to heaven, or are those differences enough to doom one of you ?
No human can say which individual goes to Heaven or not nester-san.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I am speculating too, but I am not nor will not fly into a quivering, shivering foetal ball if I am proven wrong. (BCK, cough,cough, BCK)
What's that comment targetted at me supposed to be about?

Rest assured nester-san, that when Christ returns, and that which you boldly speculate about and support, is proven false, and that which you reject and ridicule is proven true, you won't fly into anything. You'll sink to your knees and weep. You too will confess and proclaim the Glory of God.

[nester-san]

Fair enough, but the bible which is supposed to tell you how to get to heaven was written by men and not God. Did you watch pulp fiction?

There is a pivotal scene in the movie, where two killers are shot by almost point blank range by a guy and none of the bullets hit, they actually pause,look at each other,look at the guy and all three look bewildered.

One killer brushes it off as coincedence, while the other thinks that it is God basically giving him a sign to put down his gun and stop killing, and he does.

Same experience, two wholly different perspectives, if they both put it in writing, the stories though having the same point of origin will be told in two TOTALLY different ways.

[nester-san]

Rest assured nester-san, that when Christ returns, and that which you boldly speculate about and support, is proven false, and that which you reject and ridicule is proven true, you won't fly into anything. You'll sink to your knees and weep. You too will confess and proclaim the Glory of God.

Weep in fear?
Weep in Joy?
I have told you everyday, I see the glory of creation in everything, I will not proclaim to worship anything, my only true belief is our potential to better ourselves as a race.

What are you gonna do when you are proven wrong?

You cannot even contemplate that scenario!
Not even I am arrogant enough to assume I am right!

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Weep in fear?
Weep in Joy?
Weep in sorrow.


I have told you everyday, I see the glory of creation in everything, I will not proclaim to worship anything, my only true belief is our potential to better ourselves as a race.

What are you gonna do when you are proven wrong?

You cannot even contemplate that scenario!
Not even I am arrogant enough to assume I am right!
Rubbish. Of course you believe that the beliefs you hold are right. If you didn't think you were right in your beliefs, you wouldn't hold them. You believe that you are right in not proclaiming to worship anything.

Funny thing is, everybody worships something. You may not express your worship in the same way as a practicing Christian, but you devote your time, attention and praise to something. You hold something or principle in higher value than anything else. Whatever that may be, that's what you worship.

I am proven wrong about many things everyday. I try to take it in stride and learn. Sometimes I handle it well, sometimes I don't. As far as God is concerned, I have much to learn, but yes, I am pretty confident in certain things. I know that He is worthy to be praises - I won't be proven wrong on about that. I know that He loves us - He's proven that to me many times over. I have no reason to doubt.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Fair enough, but the bible which is supposed to tell you how to get to heaven was written by men and not God. Did you watch pulp fiction?

There is a pivotal scene in the movie, where two killers are shot by almost point blank range by a guy and none of the bullets hit, they actually pause,look at each other,look at the guy and all three look bewildered.

One killer brushes it off as coincedence, while the other thinks that it is God basically giving him a sign to put down his gun and stop killing, and he does.

Same experience, two wholly different perspectives, if they both put it in writing, the stories though having the same point of origin will be told in two TOTALLY different ways.

God corroborates His word in many different ways. In my life, I have seen support for some Biblical writings. Others have seen the same. People do have faith that the Bible conveys the true word of God. At the end of the day, evidence of all kinds can be presented to people and some will chose to accept it while others will chose to reject it.

What I find rather contradictory though, is that some who condemn the Bible as fiction and subject to the manipulation of men, rely themselves on the works of men to dictate their thoughts and ideas - often citing clear fiction, as credible sources. If you condemn the Bible as being unreliable because it was written by man (though inspired by God), then you must condemn every other man written text for the same reason.

Like I said though, the beauty of God, is that His will, will be done regardless. He isn't limited to writings to convey His messages. He speaks to all of us daily. It's just a matter of whether we are listening or not.

[nester-san]

Funny thing is, everybody worships something. You may not express your worship in the same way as a practicing Christian, but you devote your time, attention and praise to something. You hold something or principle in higher value than anything else. Whatever that may be, that's what you worship.

No no no, that is a simplistic conclusion!

Worship involves more than just believing in something more than anything else. That is faith!

http://www.answers.com/worship&r=67

Funny thing is remember that weird thingy i mentioned which sits between atoms and basically creates the physical aspect of our universe?

PLEASE READ BELOW COMPLETELY

" "Let there be light" is indeed a very profound statement, as one might expect of its purported author. The solid, stable world of matter appears to be sustained at every instant by an underlying sea of quantum light.

But let's take this even one step further. If it is the underlying realm of light that is the fundamental reality propping up our physical universe, let us ask ourselves how the universe of space and time would appear from the perspective of a beam of light. The laws of relativity are clear on this point. If you could ride a beam of light as an observer, all of space would shrink to a point, and all of time would collapse to an instant. In the reference frame of light, there is no space and time. If we look up at the Andromeda galaxy in the night sky, we see light that from our point of view took 2 million years to traverse that vast distance of space. But to a beam of light radiating from some star in the Andromeda galaxy, the transmission from its point of origin to our eye was instantaneous.

There must be a deeper meaning in these physical facts, a deeper truth about the simultaneous interconnection of all things. It beckons us forward in our search for a better, truer understanding of the nature of the universe, of the origins of space and time — those "illusions" that yet feel so real to us.

Bernhard Haisch, staff physicist at the Lockheed Martin Solar & Astrophysics Laboratory in Palo Alto, California, is a scientific editor of The Astrophysical Journal and editor-in-chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

The rest of the article is filled with F='s and E='s and tons of other physics stuff to explain how they discovered it.

That is more akin to God than most people would care to believe.

Unfortunately, no one knows if it is sentient, or what it is exactly.
However, even if that universal thing that creates and holds matter together is God, I will not worship it. Appreciate, acknowledge (simply because it is better than I could have done), like how I appreciate the sistene chapel, but not worship.

[Xenocrates]

Before we get into the meat of the matter, I think it would be appropriate to address this issue:


Xeno differs from you in his beliefs, even though you are both christians, I have read arguments back and forth.

Do you both go to heaven, or are those differences enough to doom one of you ?

- I suspect that this would be a classic misunderstanding of any debate between myself and BCK. First of all, let me say this, as I suspect that there may be some confusion.

BCK and I both have:

The Same Fundamental Beliefs

BCK and I have the same fundamental christian beliefs. We both believe in Christ as the begotten Son of God, redeemer of mankind, and the only path through which men can access God or gain eternal life. We both believe in a triune God (a singularity with 3 proponents essentially), in an archnemesis (embodied by Satan) eternal life after death for the ransomed (i.e. heavenly recourse for the saints) and destruction of all things in opposition to God (i.e. Sin, Death, Hell, sinners, demons, the whole 9 yards) at the end of time.

We both subscribe to the moral implications of christianity, we both believe that it is a way of life as opposed to being "just another religion". We both believe in the creationist theorem, that some devine, supernatural, intelligent being created the universe. We both subscribe to the Jewish descendant interpretation of this deity (embodied by the essence of the Bible) which is backed up by overwhelming archaeological evidence which support some of the more fantastic incidents depicted therein. We both believe that all humans are sinful by default, and that the only righteousness that any human can possess is only accessible through Christ. We both believe that Christ is our righteousness.

One of the reasons why BCK and I have the debates we do is because:


We both approach the same spiritual domain from a different philosophical perspective.


We both enjoy a good, constructive debate


Aside from myself, he is a very mature panelist, and an excellent argumentative constructor.


So let me make this absolutely clear:

WE ARE NOT IN OPPOSITION TO EACH OTHER ON FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES

To do that, we would both have to have a debate on something like whether or not Christ is indeed the Son of God, or some other cornerstone issue of such sorts. We have never had any debate on such a topic, because that is already a given. In fact, all of our fundamental beliefs are virtually identical. Thus, so long as neither of us stray from our chosen path, it is quite likely we will have the same fate after death. The specifics are quite probably inconsequential.

[Xenocrates]

Where BCK and I differ is:

Different Philosophical Approaches to our Spirituality

BlackCrytoKnight prefers the Humanist Approach

The humanist approach appeals to the emotionally quantifiable aspect of human spirituality. It takes for granted such things as macro-metaphysics (i.e. the Philosophy of the Ontological Existentialism of a Super-Deity) and doesn't rely on ostensible phenomenon. The humanist approach defines everything from a human perspective, and gives it just definition and unction to facilitate the purpose of human existence and well being. The humanist approach treats the human factor as being more important than anything else in the model. The humanist approach is based on the broad principle that "I believe, because it feels like the right thing."

Advantages: The Humanist approach gives a much more palatable definition to human existence. It is a deontological epitaph that is more easily understood by the lay man, and translates easily into doctrinal education for the masses. The humanist approach treats everything as it appears literally, and does not seek to try for deeper implicit meaning in something that can otherwise be meaningfully interpreted explicitly. It is by far the most popular interpretational form of any belief system and is often tied to powerful emotional energies.

Disadvantages: The humanist approach fails to stand against less intrinsic criticisms. It fails to explain randomness, inconsistency in doctrinal epitaphs, or macro-metaphysical observations. The humanist paradigm appeals to the emotional man instead of the logical man, and is thus rife with fallatic inconsistencies. Someone who sees the universe in a logically ordered manner will probably not subscribe to the humanist approach and may subsequently become agnostic or atheistic.

Xeno prefers the Skeptical Approach

The skeptical approach assumes that nothing can be proven until it is first doubted. In so doing, the doubt is logically disassembled by progressively assembling undoubtable, logically integrateable facts. The model allows the thinker to progressively retrace their step from doubt to irrefutable proof, thus giving a far more sturdy model for a "belief system" that can withstand the harshest of criticisms. The Skeptical approach is based on the broad priciple that "I believe because I can prove."

Advantages: The skeptical approach is great for answering ANY question, once an epistomological model has been successfully implemented. Because it is logically ordered, each answer can be traced to a series of easily understood steps (each made of simple, irrefutable ideas). The Skeptical approach defines everything, from the ontology of a deity (i.e. the basis on which a deity exists) back to the "fuzzy-logic" of a belief. It takes fewer chances with faith and more with empirical evidence.

Disadvantages: According to Socrates, "Some truths are too dangerous for simpler minds". The belief model derived from a skeptical approach will prove to be difficult to eschew to a lay man for several reasons:


Firstly, the model can become rather complex. Thus, the average person will probably not see any justification in "killing brain cells" over it.


Secondly, the model requires an open mind with the ability for objective thinking. This is because the model will tread on ground to which the lay man has attached strong emotional energies. Such treading will most naturally be seen by the lay man as being "blasphemous" or "sacriledgeous".


Thirdly, as such, this model is far less popular, and seen as being "dangerous for preserving the integrity of doctrinal propagation".


Fourthly, the model relies heavily upon the ability of individuals adopting this approach to successfully create an integral model of belief through logic. But the average person is more capable of thinking emotionally than logically, thus this approach will fail in most cases, leading to either Atheism or Agnosticism.


Finally, the skeptical approach, if not attended to objectively, can lead to the spawning of an erroneous belief model, which instead of corroborating the biblical (or original) support system, contradicts it, spawning a sub-sectional belief system, based on the original premise of the religion. This is what we call a "cult".


That is the fundamental difference between how BCK and I approach the same issue. Neither of us is fundamentally wrong or right. We have debates for educational purposes mostly (well, for fun purposes as well - we share a passion for educational discussions). Our cornerstone beliefs are still there. We tackle the more "fuzzy-logic" issues which may differ between our denominations or spiritual approaches - issues which are not very explicitly addressed in the Bible. That always proves to be a more fun debate and a far more interesting discussion.

Thus, I don't want anyone here to believe that BCK and I aren't on the same page. Essentially, we are. We just arrive at the same conclusion differently. So before you guys jump to any conclusions, it helps to ask for clarification. Some things we discuss here are pretty deep, and can be easily misunderstood. The fun in these kinds of debates is factorized by our different spiritual approaches. If we agreed on everything, we would have nothing to discuss. :icon_frow

Fair enough guys? Ok, let's continue. ;)

[Xenocrates]

That is more akin to God than most people would care to believe.

- What's REALLY going to blow your mind Nester-san, is that we've had a very similar discussion on TechJamaica a long time ago about what Physicists call "String Theory".

String Theory asserts (paraphrased) that the very substance of this universe is bound together by magnetic coils that closely resemble strings. The coils are made of a kind of sub-light spectrum matter, which doesn't exist in THIS universe. Here's where it gets even more interesting:

This parallel universe MUST exist, because that's the only way that a Neutron and a Proton (both positively charged) can co-exist in the same atomic nucleus, without tearing apart the very fabric of the universe. Furthermore, this parallel universe is made up ENTIRELY of pure electricity. Additionally, there is nothing in this parallel universe which is solid, has mass, weight or any other measureable dimension. That sounds an aweful lot like the Bible's definition of a "Spirit Realm" doesn't it? :icon_mrgr

Physicists finally conclude, that the Big Bang, was actually caused by a rupturing of the fabric of this parallel universe into this one. Antimatter crossed over interdimentional divides, and created matter from the pure anti-energy which exists in this parallel realm. That's what caused the massive explosion that was the Big Bang, and thus Genesis 1:1.

If it were possible to retrieve that thread from the Off Topics Section of TechJamaica, that would be awesome.

So really and truly Nester-san, the Bible and scientific discoveries are far more succinctly related than you give them credit for! ;)


Unfortunately, no one knows if it is sentient, or what it is exactly.

- Ask yourself this simple question:

If you believe that you were created by a greater force of energy, isn't it plausible, that since you're sentient, that the energy must also be sentient? That's pretty straight-forward logic Nester. I guess your head hurts by this, huh? :icon_mrgr


However, even if that universal thing that creates and holds matter together is God, I will not worship it.

- You're trying really hard to reduce your creator to nothing more than a force of nature - I'm not sure that is actually possible to prove, for very obvious reason. Can you prove that? I seriously doubt that you could.

If you can, I will gladly recant everything I've said before. ;)

GO FOR IT! (if you dare!) :icon_mrgr

[nester-san]

If you believe that you were created by a greater force of energy, isn't it plausible, that since you're sentient, that the energy must also be sentient? That's pretty straight-forward logic Nester. I guess your head hurts by this, huh?

I actually do think it is sentient, but I can't take another dressing down from BCK, so I left it open :icon_redf



You're trying really hard to reduce your creator to nothing more than a force of nature - I'm not sure that is actually possible to prove, for very obvious reason. Can you prove that? I seriously doubt that you could.

No I actually am not, I just do not see a creator who needs worship from anyone. I am not saying anyone else must not do as they see fit!

I see a creator as something better than us, who we need to become, not just "spiritually", but on every level.

Why?

Simple, we as a race, cannot truly understand the why of anything, unless we can comprehend everything.