Why Did Jesus Choose Judas Iscariot ? [Archive] - Caribbean Online Community ~ CaribYard.com

easyskanka

January 26, 2006, 03:21 PM

Jesus knew that he would be betrayed by one of his disciples, so why did he not bypass Judas and leave him out of his band of loyal followers? Jesus knew the sciptures back to front for obvious reasons. That was amply demonstrated from his childhood experience in the temple in Jerusalem. And of course he frequently quoted verses on a regular basis.

I honestly don't think Jesus knew at the time of his selection of his twelve followers the exact person who would betray him. Of course as the time of his death drew painfully closer he knew exactly the person who was about to deliver him up into the hands of his enemies. Just like when the woman who touched the hem of his garment caused him to enquire as to whom it was who had touched him thereby causing power to go out of him to her, and healing her of the medical complaint. He was not playing a game with the woman for the sake and benefit of the crowds, rather her complete faith in his powers made her reach out and heal herself via him [Jesus].

Did Judas at the time of his calling always have a wicked and callous heart? I don't think this was necesssarily so. In fact I think that he was probably as elated as the next disciple to know that he had been chosen by the person he came to accept as the the 'Messiah and Christ' who had been prophesied to be a salvation first to the Jews and then to the 'Nations.'

Generally speaking we all have a dailly choice to do the right thing or not as the case might be. It is said that we are drawn toward sin by the influences of our own hearts, in other words we are free to see various opportunities that are presented to us in the form of desires and we act upon them the way we see fit.

This propensity we have of blaming God in a roundabout way in which we conclude that he is running the whole show and condemning some while saving others is childish and immature to the nth degree. Yes God does know the beginning from the end, but it is written that it is impossible for God to 'Lie'. Based on this statement God has said he wishes no-one to perish, but wants us all to repent and be saved. What this says to me is that the 'True God' really is an unselfish person and is indeed 'Love personified'.

The fact that the majority of us will die an eternal death one day does not make God a 'Liar.' Far from it, he just tells the truth about what we prefer in our hearts, namely that we we prefer to do and think things out our way in order to puff up/out our chests and say, 'we'll do things the way we wish to, thank you very much', and we'll pay the ultimate price according to the laws of physics and spirituality.

So there you have it. We're free to make our own choices, the way the 'father of the lie, namely satan had the freedom of choice to make his decisions and also Judas made his, and we make ours.

The day humility can dominate our hearts is the day we stand the best chance of having life everlasting. Anything else will be touch and go. My knowing these things and my acting upon them can be the the difference between life and death. Tomorrow is promised to no-one. Grasp the day while it is here.

Jesus was not lying or playing games with his disciples when he said he knew not the day or the hour of the 'great day.' He is like 'his' Father who cannot lie. Therefore we might rationally conclude that the 'Son' does not know all that the 'Father' knows, only that which is revealed to him.

Judas was was revealed to him at a particular time and not before. These are purely my own thoughts on the matter and should not be taken as gospel.

We are told by the bible no less, that we should not 'lean' on our own understanding, so....

Xenocrates

January 26, 2006, 03:57 PM

I don't think Jesus had a choice in Judas Iscariot's destiny. Remember, Jesus was likewise fulfilling the pre-scripted will of God. He said it himself, while praying in the Garden of Gethsemane:

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Everything that Jesus did on earth was in fulfillment of God's will. If Christ can recognize that, how hard is it then for us mere mortals to recognize the same thing? Christ didn't choose Judas. Judas was pre-ordained for that role, in as much as Christ was pre-ordained to die for us. Christ was just following the plan that God the father had given to him before he came to earth. He is as subject to God's will as all mortals.

Izemi-Clem

January 26, 2006, 05:29 PM

Hail

:icon_arro Xeno

Let us follow your "Pre-Scripted Will" theory, explain the purpose of Christ's temptation, this is a pivotal part of the entire gospel story.

It gives us the impression tht Jesus was just as vulnerable as they rest of us and it shows the amount of influence evil has over good, it does show us that we as mankind have within ourselves the strength to conquer evil.

Jesus chose to follow the will of God, he made a choice.

Is it that this was a pre-stage illussion to give us the impression of having the chioce to chose our faith? And why would that at all be necessary?

Do you think that God's will (with regards to Christ's betrayal) rested solely in the hands of Judas?
I believe whether or not Judas betrayed Christ, it would not have made a difference, Jesus wouls still have been on that cross.

Izemi-Clem

ramesh

January 26, 2006, 06:06 PM

I saw a documentary recently which suggested that Judas' action was not a betrayal but requested by Jesus himself. I believe this was on the History Channel.

Izemi-Clem

January 26, 2006, 06:41 PM

Hail

:icon_arro Ramesh

I would have loved to have seen that episode, sounds like quite a strecth if you asked me.

What? Did they find Judas' laptop with an email from Jesus asking him to do it?
Can you imagine? Judas the world's first suicide informer :eusa_thin

Izemi-Clem

ramesh

January 26, 2006, 07:02 PM

Apparently they based it on Jesus' words to Judas "Do what you have to do" or something to that effect. The implication was that Judas' role was to inform the priest of Jesus' location and that Jesus would give no resistance.

Judas - Traitor or Friend? (http://www.paulistproductions.org/prod_judast.html)

Izemi-Clem

January 26, 2006, 07:30 PM

Hail

:icon_arro Ramesh

Interesting !!!

So what's the angle with his suicide? How did they look at that, in the episode?
If it was not an admition of guilt, what was it? Was that also pre-arranged or did Judas have "issues" as a result of his participation?

Izemi-Clem

Manu

January 26, 2006, 07:31 PM

Judas played his part....so did Peter...so did Pilate....so did the centurion at the cross. Prophecy fulfilled!

easyskanka

January 27, 2006, 09:59 AM

The simple point of fact is this. Suppose we could see into the future but were under the directive such as in startreck not to get involved with the way things will turn out.

This is where the Almighty is at. He does NOT will things to happen a certain or given way. But he foretells it as he sees it. In other words for every action that sentient beings such as ourselves make, there is a reaction that God will make in order to maintain the equilibrium which he has put into place. He gave us a free will but he did not say or stipulate that our will would take precedence over his own. Rightly so too.

To say that Jesus told Judas to do evil is derisory to say the least. If a man sets his heart to behave in a negative way, there is little or nothing that can be said or done to convince that individual otherwise. So it was that Jesus told him to do what he had set himself to do.

I might add that the directive applies to us but God plays by his own honourable rules. How much fairer than God could anyone be? He foretells things so that we have the chance to change our destinies. However we like pharoah tend to harden our hearts even when the facts of life is staring us in the face. Hence just like pharoah we will certainly perish because of our own making. God just tells it like it is. He said I will allow pharoah's heart to become hard, because that is what pharoah wanted, God allowed him to have his own way. He, God, Told Moses to throw down his stick and it became a snake. The magic practicing priests did the same with their sticks. The difference is/was that God's power overcame theirs. In other words satan wrestles with God but his might, although also impressive, is no match for 'The Great Scientist' who is 'The Father' and Almighty God.

God has not put on a pre-destined show of his making. Anyone who claims this is unfortuately ultra dillusional and it becomes quite futile to convince them otherwise. If only they would accept the premise that it is impossible for GOD TO LIE.Then they would get it!

Xenocrates

January 28, 2006, 12:44 PM

It gives us the impression tht Jesus was just as vulnerable as they rest of us and it shows the amount of influence evil has over good, it does show us that we as mankind have within ourselves the strength to conquer evil.

- Jesus took on the flesh of sinful man in order to save mankind. Thus, while he had access to supernatural power, he was, in his flesh, effectively a mortal being, subjected to the weaknesses of men and the fist of a mighty God inasmuch as every other human being on the planet. I did say quite clearly in my first response, that Christ is as subject to God's will as mankind, as is clearly evidenced by the scripture I quoted earlier: Matthew 26:39

Heck, I dare you to explain away that scripture. It shows VERY CLEAR subjection of Christ's will to God. He was a "victim" in as much as every one else. I'll go even further to quote another scripture to prove my point:

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand

- This was a prophecy my brejin. God had this whole thing of Christ's death wired up from day one. Notice the words underlined and bolded. The pleased here doesn't mean "he enjoyed". It means "it satisfied Him that it had to be done that way". To suggest that Christ's death was an accident is ludicrous. That would mean God is imperfect, and is constantly supplying Service Packs and Patches for the universe, inasmuch as Microsoft does for Windows. I won't accept that.

Either God willed it that way, or God doesn't exist - because the "accidental" definition doesn't befit a God worth worshipping (or any God for that matter). :eusa_snoo That would mean that Nester-san is right, that we can build tech to become Gods ourselves. Don't you see the implications?

Jesus chose to follow the will of God, he made a choice.

- What choice did he have? Jesus seriously ran the risk of being cut off from God if His will were not fulfilled:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

- Christ was STRIPPED of that Glory when he came to earth! He was nothing more than a mortal man with access to supernatural power. He had to take on the iconification of sinful flesh to become the once eternal sacrifice for mankind. Then check this out:

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

- Again, Christ subjecting himself to God's will. Notice an interesting thing he said: "if this cup may not pass away from me" - What does that tell you? The implications are obvious! Christ is here alluding to the very fact that this was a pre-ordained path that God had engineered for him! He is actually considering the possibility that it doesn't have to end this way (because he knows of the pain ahead he has to endure), but then he recants, and says "thy will be done". If God's will had not already been set in stone, there's no way that Christ would be referring to some will that had not yet been agreed upon before he even came to earth!

Xenocrates

January 28, 2006, 12:44 PM

Is it that this was a pre-stage illussion to give us the impression of having the chioce to chose our faith? And why would that at all be necessary?

- Look boss, to me and you, it seems like nonsense. But the scripture clearly tells us:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD

- Here is a VERY CLEAR CUT distinction between the cognitive method of God, versus the cognitive method of man. He is clearly stating here that "I don't think like you guys do". That's where we always fall down in trying to apply human logic to what God does.

Where God sees providence, Man sees choice. Man can't see the big picture (since he's already a part of the pre-arrangement), so in man's mind, Man chooses. You get it? There is a separation of thought methodology for the two types of beings. In fact, it is evident in what Christ said to Judas:

23 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
.
.
.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

- Pay special attention to this passage of scripture and ask yourself this question:

How in creation could Jesus have known that Judas was going to betray him if the very act wasn't already written in stone in God's pre-ordinate will?

Xenocrates

January 28, 2006, 12:51 PM

I believe whether or not Judas betrayed Christ, it would not have made a difference, Jesus wouls still have been on that cross.

- There is no possibility that Judas could not have betrayed Christ. That's almost the same thing as saying that it's possible that God doesn't know what he's doing. Think about it. ;)

Do you think that God's will (with regards to Christ's betrayal) rested solely in the hands of Judas?

- Ofcourse not! Remember, Christ is fulfilling God's will on earth. Everything is playing out the way God intended. Therefore, how could Judas have chosen to betray Christ? Judas was doomed from before he was born, and I'll prove it:

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

- You guys are saying that I'm making up this "predestinated" theory, even when the Bible clearly shows it to us in plain black and white (which I'll prove using scripture in just a moment). I think the problem you folks are having, is that it bothers you all that you are not in control of your destinies.

If you believe in God at ALL, then there's NO WAY you can also believe that you are in control of your destiny. It is either God is in control of your destiny, or you don't believe in God at all. Make up your minds. It's one or the other. But it can't be both.

I've said it on this forum many times before: God forsees because he has already pre-ordained.

Now I will prove my point with scripture. Read and weep:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- God already knows who will enter heaven. Can you see the logical progression used in this passage?

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

- God already knows that Christ will die, and who will accept or reject him. This scripture also VERY CLEARLY, in black and white, shows what I'm talking about. Look at the underlined portions! More:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

- Everything we do, has already been predestinated to fit into God's will. EVERYTHING. The scripture clearly says that in black and white...

...and you guys thought that the predestination theory was MY idea. :rotflm:

Let me be blunt: You are not in control of your destiny; God is. Period. Full Stop. End of Story. Argument done.

Xenocratu locuti est. Causa finita est. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/coolio.gif

easyskanka

January 28, 2006, 03:10 PM

The same old same old is trotted out by Xeno forever and a day.Almost:D . Fact of the matter is, Jesus felt like not going through with his mission when he prayed to God to ask him to take this cup of bitterness away from him. Anyone who applies honest logic will see this is the case.

What you have here is a completely innocent man, in every sense of the word,saying; Please Father, if there is another path other than this one, please let it pass me by. However I know the purpose of why I came down here [to earth], so according to your greater power infuse me with the necessary strength to get me through this.

God, through his prophets told us that the Christ overcame his predicament. What Christ did not know was exactly what would be involved in the whole process.

Christ will reign with his original disciples and a chosen amount of people in heaven along with him for a thousand years over the newly freed earth. What he has learned and endured while on earth will stand him in good stead for this important role asigned to him by his heavenly Father, the Almighty God.

The all important point that I will sign off with is this; Whether you are a gunman, a corrupt politician or just a regular everyday sinner, [which we all are], provided we have the ability to know right from wrong and our consciences function as God intended it to, then we like Christ can turn to our heavenly Father and say; I'm weak and on the road to destruction, but with your strength, and yours alone I [we] can overcome. Provision will of course be made for every eventuality of human conditions by God and his Christ.

I see the argument that Xeno puts across quite clearly. It is the question that I, in my younger years, posed, and many before me and since have said; 'We're just pawns in God and satan's game.' The failure to not wishing to see past this 'simplistic claptrap,' however well tarted up it is presented, will not be a cause for excuse when the right time comes. Therefore book your place on the express to everlasting life. You may not do or say everthing in the right way, but God knows the intentions of the heart and he will judge us in mercy and discretion because he is Righteousness and truth itself.

The book of Job explains all of this to perfection, even so that imperfect beings such as we, can see what the 'TRUE' nature of God is.

PETTY GAMES IS JUST NOT HIS STYLE.

Xenocrates

January 28, 2006, 05:45 PM

I agree with you easyskanka. In fact, the only thing I would debate is this:

What Christ did not know was exactly what would be involved in the whole process.

- I would contend that he did. Again, let's check the Bible:

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

- From this it is quite clear that Jesus knew exactly what was ahead of him. In fact, this is the reason why he started to succumb to human fear, contemplating the possibility that the cup of suffering could pass him by.

easyskanka

January 29, 2006, 05:36 AM

Manu

January 29, 2006, 09:32 AM

My hat goes off to you on this occasion Xeno, not because you agree with the bulk of my argument, but because you did not seek to belittle my argument based on any form of conceit.

We as men know the drill that a woman giving birth has to go through. All the preparation etc. We can empathize, encourage and hold her hand. What we can't do is share the literal pain with her. Hence if she could forego the whole episode without the fear of pain [modern medical procedures notwithstanding], she would opt for a painless birth.

So it was with the Christ. He knew the script and the role he had to play.Nevertheless as a man who was not under the same sinful sentence as ourselves, he found it particularly hard to face. He had never put a foot wrong in all the eons of existence with God, angels or men, yet he was to be humiliated and brutally executed because of his love for us and the fact that he wants us, as mankind, to have a future.Epic stuff indeed.

So based on Xeno's theory....(forgive me saying this) Christ was meaningless. His sacrifice means nothing because he just fulfilling a role. If God had George Bush or PJ to be the messiah...then so be it. If so is the case, why pray for peace, deliverance and longevity? All prayers should just be thanking God for the role we're playing in life right? And if we're a homeless person we should curse God right? Afterall, that's the role we supposed to play. And by further extent, it is safe to say that homosexuality is not a perversion of the mind. God did infact make them that way. Then if we're true Christians, we should be complaining about anything in the world. Just live our lives and let the world pass us by. Do nothing. But then again, we may be still following our part so what? Be a bum and do nothing and say that that's the path God made for you. Become a killer and a thief and say that's the role God made for you. I'll continue to believe in my illusion....to have a feeling of self-worth.....if i have none...then why am here? Might as well just kill myself.... perhaps that is my destiny eh?

easyskanka

January 29, 2006, 11:46 AM

Hello Manu! I would say that technically speaking, your premise as to where Xeno's original arguments normally lead is a correct one. However I have never agreed with the reasoning that the whole of human and spiritual beings existence was just a pre-scripted play that we should lay back and just accept. I prove this is not the case on a personal day to day basis. The fact that God has the ability to know beforehand what I will do, does not negate from the fact that it is solely my responsibility the decisions I take/make.

Where I agreed with Xeno was in the fact that although not completely capitulating to what I had said, he nevertheless made a sterling attempt to accept what was said by me. He still maintained that it is God pulling Jesus's strings [I contend that Christ has free will], While I pointed out that although Jesus knew what would occur and befall him according to the the scriptures, he had to endure torture and humiliation along with death. A completely new and frightening experience for him.

The end result to all he endured and conquered is, now he has first hand experience of what humans have to go through, thereby giving him the insight he needs to judge us according to the will of his Father. He can fully empathize with us on every level. He committed no sin but took all our sins upon himself and became the sacrificial lamb that has been sacrificed and accepted on our behalf by God, his/our Father.

Please do not think that I will ever accept that we should adhere to the wrong because it is the easier option and that it is all pre-planned. Nothing is impossiblle to God, except that which he has imposed upon himself. Afterall if a parent is going to teach his/her children the correct path to take through life, that parent should set a good example by walking that path themselves. No better example can be set other than to do the good that we preach and espouse.

I hope this clarifies the situation for you.:D

Izemi-Clem

January 29, 2006, 03:28 PM

Hail

:icon_arro Manu

Well put lion.

Every scripture that Xeno has quoted shows implicitly that each individual has the choice in deciding to do wrong or right.

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
This warning would not have been necessary if that man was already designated and had no choice in betraying the Son of Man.
If death is the wages of Sin, then who really sins? And what is sin?
If in fact we have no choice and are born pre-functioned and predisposed to sin?

Jesus took on the flesh of sinful man in order to save mankind. Thus, while he had access to supernatural power, he was, in his flesh, effectively a mortal being, subjected to the weaknesses of men..
Saving mankind and dying for our sins are terms used to describe the purpose of Jesus, but what do they mean? And how is this process effected in real terms?

"I am the way and the light"..Jesus

Clearly it is suggested to us that the life of Jesus is an example to mankind, proving that it is indeed possible for mankind to be limited by the flesh and all the weakness inherent in man and yet still be able to lead a righteous life.
The creator in his benevolence shows us that he is not at all unreasonable in his expectations of us, he has given us the life of his son as a blueprint and guideline for us to follow.

What is the benefit of the gift of life if we have no freedom to decide our faith? In circumstances, both physical and spiritual, that we have heard about, the actions and deeds of the creator has followed a logical process. The Pre-scripted theory of Xeno's does not follow any logic (at least to me), if we were to follow his theory, then logically all sinners are pre-scripted to sin by the creator himself and if they are doing the creator's will then how can they sin?
Look closer in the bible and you will find it tells us of many instances where God was displeased with man's behavior.
How could he be displeased with his own script? Work that one out for me. please.

We have learned that the power of sin comes from the freedom of choice given to man, this is the real gift of life and through which we fulfill the purpose of life. It is the same reason came and died; to show us how to live, to show us what the right choices are and how to conquer evil.

Izemi-Clem

Xenocrates

January 29, 2006, 07:12 PM

So based on Xeno's theory....(forgive me saying this)?

- You're forgiven, but I must make this ABUNDANTLY clear:

This is NOT Xeno's Theory. It never was, still isn't, and never will be.

I think I've shown you guys adequate enough evidence in the Bible to show that nothing we do isn't already apart of the perfect will of God. If that were not the case, then God wouldn't predestinate, and it would not be written in the Bible.

And by further extent, it is safe to say that homosexuality is not a perversion of the mind.

- What's really going to bake your noodles, mon kapitan, is this scripture:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

- What do you make of that? :eusa_thin

Just live our lives and let the world pass us by. Do nothing. But then again, we may be still following our part so what? Be a bum and do nothing and say that that's the path God made for you.

- You realise that sort of thinking is redundantly circular right? Do you realise that to say that "we should be a bum since our futures are predestinated" assumes that we already know what our future is? Do you know what lies in your future? You're not in the same position as Jesus Christ. Jesus knew his future aforehand. You do not. ;)

The end result to all he endured and conquered is, now he has first hand experience of what humans have to go through, thereby giving him the insight he needs to judge us according to the will of his Father. He can fully empathize with us on every level. He committed no sin but took all our sins upon himself and became the sacrificial lamb that has been sacrificed and accepted on our behalf by God, his/our Father.

- WELL SAID!!! :eusa_clap I aught to buy you a beer! :icon_mrgr

That is the FUNCTIONAL PURPOSE of Christ's suffering on earth. If Christ didn't suffer and attain the brutal experience of a mortal execution and death, there's no way that Christ would be suitable enough to be the go-between of mankind and God. Jesus Christ translates human suffering and inferiority to be meaningful to a perfect God.

Xenocrates

January 29, 2006, 07:13 PM

Every scripture that Xeno has quoted shows implicitly that each individual has the choice in deciding to do wrong or right.

- Show me. I'm open to new interpretations.

This warning would not have been necessary if that man was already designated and had no choice in betraying the Son of Man.

- It's not a warning Izemi. The only place where a conditional word is used in that passage of scripture (the word "if"), is where it describes the conditionality of his very existence. This means that the only way that this man could have avoided betraying Christ, is if he wasn't born. That's what it says, quite literally. ;)

The Pre-scripted theory of Xeno's does not follow any logic (at least to me), if we were to follow his theory, then logically all sinners are pre-scripted to sin by the creator himself and if they are doing the creator's will then how can they sin?

- The question you should really ask yourself Izemi, is why didn't God just destroy Satan from day one? It's not like he can't. Let that one soak into your noggin for a few days, and then you will have the answer to your question. I guarantee it. ;)

In fact, I'll give you a jump start:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

...and just make it abundantly clear:

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Think long and hard Izemi. :)

Manu

January 29, 2006, 07:19 PM

That is the FUNCTIONAL PURPOSE of Christ's suffering on earth. If Christ didn't suffer and attain the brutal experience of a mortal execution and death, there's no way that Christ would be suitable enough to be the go-between of mankind and God. Jesus Christ translates human suffering and inferiority to be meaningful to a perfect God.

But why does He need Jesus to translate something to him that he already knows????? All these circles are making me dizzy :icon_eek:

easyskanka

January 30, 2006, 12:24 AM

But why does He need Jesus to translate something to him that he already knows????? All these circles are making me dizzy :icon_eek:

God is infinite in wisdom, as I'm sure you are all to aware Manu. God chose to give Solomon a great increase in knowledge. Solomon used his great knowledge to look into and investigate many questions, to test theories and to look for general answers to the universe and everything.

He concluded that the reading of many books can become wearisome to the flesh and the persuit of knowledge like chasing after the wind.

So he said in basic laymans terms; Just chill out whenever possible, respect and love God and this is what will bring true contentment and peace of mind.

So mr. Manu, don't fret yourself over the why's and wherefor's of every twist and turn of our biased tendencies. Just do your best to fight the good spiritual fight and any short comings on your part will be interceded for by Jesus our Savior.

easyskanka

January 30, 2006, 12:46 AM

As to Judas Iscariot satan used him because he knew his love of money was his major weakspot. He would have tested the other discples also, even as he tested the Christ for sure, and who [Jesus] would have been the number one target to get into his clutches for obvious reasons. If he could have caused the very first being to have been directly created by God himself to sin, then all creation as he[satan] would have thought, would now be undermined, and satan would have claimed the victory.

The testing of the other eleven disciples would have only made them draw closer to Jesus who would then give them added strength to stand firm against the devil's machinations.

Judas was a different kettle of fish. He new just what he ought to do according to his conscience just like Adam also knew. But he sacrificed long term life assurance for short term ill-gotten gain.

This is why God was so pleased with Soloman's request for wisdom to guide him in the right way. He could have asked for wealth and long life, but instead requested that which is closer to God's own heart, namely wisdom with humility. God then as a bonus, gave him great wealth and contentment.

Xenocrates

January 30, 2006, 07:34 AM

So mr. Manu, don't fret yourself over the why's and wherefor's of every twist and turn of our biased tendencies. Just do your best to fight the good spiritual fight and any short comings on your part will be interceded for by Jesus our Savior.

- Right again easy (you're on a roll these last couple a days aren't ya?)

As I had said to you in the Fate thread Manu, these things are only for our consideration. In fact, let me re-iterate the purpose of these considerations:

Hate God & Die? God Forbid!

There's no point in "hating" God for his design of the universe, since you will only loose. Furthermore, if there's anything you like about the universe, that's part of the design too. In fact, I am confident in saying, that without the bad things that exist in the universe that God created, you would not be able to appreciate the good things. Take your girlfriend for example. If there weren't other girls in the world who had characteristics unlike her, you would not have selected her in the first place. ;)

We are predestinated, but not Omniscient

There's no point in baking your noodles over the fact that everything is pre-scripted as the Bible has shown us, for several reasons:

Future, Unknown - We don't know our future. If we did, then that would give us information by which we could change our destiny. But the mere fact that we don't, means that we will achieve that destiny, no matter what you do (even if you "throw your hands up into the air and drop everything".)

Factors, Unknown - We don't know what factors influence our daily "choices". For if we knew all of the inputs and outputs of our daily lives, odds are, we would want to change them, and thus wreck the chronological cycle that God has designed, thus changing our inevitable destiny. That assumes that we are potentially just as powerful as God, which we obviously are not.

Recognizing Absolute Power - Recognizing predestination is not a penchant to question God. Rather, it allows us mere mortals to appreciate the sheer awesome power of God, and thus allows us to appreciate the neccessity of worship. Only omniscient human beings can question the design of the universe. Omniscience gives the power to change it. But since we're not omniscient, there's nothing we can do about it. Good or bad, God willed it.

And thus, the fallacy of the "I Will" - Therefore, it is redundantly circular to throw up our hands in the air and say "drop everything, since my destiny is pre-meditated". That assumes that we already know what our outcome is and that we can do anything about it - neither of which are true.

In fact, once we have accepted that "God run tings", it becomes easier for us to live our lives, always under the preconception that it is in his control. That's why we have the following Bible scriptures:

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.

Note clearly the underlined sentences. Note especially the part that is bolded. No God fearing person should believe that they are in control of their own destiny. If you believe in God, then you must also believe in predestination, and thus a prescripted universe. In fact, the Bible says that to believe we have control over our destinies is evil!

Recognizing predestination is recognizing the awesome power of God. In everything you do, recognize God's will first, then go about your daily life:

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

It is a recognization of God's awesome pre-determinate universe why we consciously subject our wills to God. We are not effectively changing our future (since we can't either way). We are merely just recognizing that God is behind its design. Thus if bad things happen to you, give thanks. If good things happen, give thanks. We should not become caught up in asking ourselves "why me?" - because God has willed it.

Just live your life in the recognition that whatever happens to you, God willed it, and as such, Give Thanks.

You follow me Manu? :)

Manu

January 30, 2006, 10:38 AM

Following you is hard but I get you.

easyskanka

January 30, 2006, 03:15 PM

@ Xeno..Now hold on there boy....Whoah..hold your horses. If you don't look where you are going when crossing the road and get knocked down and die...,God did not will that....no way sireee, no way. If you decide to shoot an innocent person dead...God did not will it...no sireee...no way, no how. When Cain killed his brother Abel...God did not will it...not at all...no way no how....sorry partner...I ain't buying you no beer untill you get your knotts...untangled...;)

You make a convincing argument Xeno...but, it's back to the drawing board I'm afraid. Jesus did have a will of his own...said it with his own lips. Thing is, if he had not leaned on his Father at his times of weakness, he would have succomed to the onslaught of the enemy. God proved time and time again that we do have the ability to change our destinies. He would stress the point time and time again to his people Israel and also the many kings who did not serve him the way David his servant used to serve him.

The true God would say; 'If only they [Israel] would turn back to me so that I would heal them.' Also, God sent his messengers throughout history to warn the nations, time and time again. What would be the point if God thought they would not change? I see your point Xeno, but you like chasing your tail when in fact you have not got one. Double jeopardy old chap.

When Jonah finally got to Nineveh, he said his piece, and the people changed their ways. We all have that opportunity. God is fair and gives everyone the chance to make an informed decision. This is not a game we play, you and I, to see who can win an argument. Just the facts plain and simple.

The scriptures do indeed say that God created all things, thereby evil also as a byproduct. Imagine an engineer builds a bridge to transport people and goods across a raging river. Suppose it is a great bridge, built to exacting standards to withstand all the elements and all the traffic imaginable.

The engineer has signs erected about the proper use of that bridge and how it is imperative that all persons using the bridge must adhere to all of the relevent signs. Now suppose people ignore the warning signs and become fatalities. Will you argue that the engineer created their deaths because of the misuse of the information that was posted regarding the bridge?

The difference with the Almighty engineer is that he foresees those who will misbehave, because of whom he happens to be. But the people, the disobedient ones, got the same message as those who heeded the message not to do the things that will cause their destruction.

Xenocrates

January 30, 2006, 03:37 PM

Ok, I'll make this very simple:

The perfect rat trap, is one in which the rat has no reason to think he's trapped.

Such is the nature of the universe. ;)

easyskanka

January 30, 2006, 04:41 PM

@ you're a clever rat master Xeno, but your temperament is more like mr. Toad of Toad Hall.;)

Xenocrates

January 30, 2006, 08:16 PM

:rotflm: :dwl: Cool nuh? :icon_mrgr

ramesh

April 7, 2006, 12:58 AM

Not sure I mentioned it, but scholars discovered a copy of the "Gospel of Judas"

"The Gospel of Judas has some stunning items in it. For one thing it has Jesus ask Judas to sacrifice the man that clothes me -- in other words to bring about Jesus' death to accomplish his mission and that's exactly what Judas does and so instead of being villain, instead of being a traitor, Judas becomes a good guy," Evans told CTV.

Quoted from here:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060406/gospel_judas_060406/20060406?hub=CTVNewsAt11

easyskanka

April 7, 2006, 02:16 AM

Not sure I mentioned it, but scholars discovered a copy of the "Gospel of Judas"

Quoted from here:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060406/gospel_judas_060406/20060406?hub=CTVNewsAt11

In this time of the end of these days, satan is becoming quite frantic as his time of destruction draws to a close. Therefore lots of these types of confusing stories are in circulation, to lead even the faithful astray if they do not remain vigilant.

nester-san

April 7, 2006, 09:04 AM

In this time of the end of these days, satan is becoming quite frantic as his time of destruction draws to a close. Therefore lots of these types of confusing stories are in circulation, to lead even the faithful astray if they do not remain vigilant.

Interesting reading so far, but what makes this text invalid and the rest of the bible true ?

Isn't the bible collected together from lost texts like this one ?

Or did it all appear somewhere, glowing faintly, neatly spellchecked and bound in leather ?

Just a quick question, then back to your debate....:eusa_ange

Izemi-Clem

April 7, 2006, 09:43 AM

Hail

Therefore lots of these types of confusing stories are in circulation, to lead even the faithful astray if they do not remain vigilant.

Only the weak and foolish shall waver - Haile Selassie

It was been established that this book was written by the Gnostics in the 3rd Century.
As has been discussed in a previous thread, apocryphal books like these were written by people who chose to use names of persons in the bible to offer their perspective on bible theocracy.

Books such as "The Second Book of Adam and Eve, The Gospel and Birth of Mary, Odes of Solomon and the Testament of Reuben" all gave even greater detail than those provided by the sanctified books already in both established Bibles.

It must be remembered also that such a thing as historical accuracy is a comparatively novel product. The older writers never dreamed of it. They wrote in order to be interesting, not to tell the truth.
And it is a fact that the events recorded in the Holy Scriptures, as far as we can find out, were most of them veritable, and the chroniclers were truthful.

Izemi-Clem