Proposed Charter of rights a threat to Jamaica?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

There is debate about the proposed Charter of Rights having too many loopholes which would threaten the rights and freedoms of the nations people, as well as leave the door open for such things as gay marriages and banning of religious expression in schools.

The Church is very vocal about this (so nobaddy cyaan seh di church did silent):


According to the National Church Alliance, the vague language of the Charter could lead to the acceptance of consensual homosexual acts and allow judges to take activist positions and create policy without public accountability.
Read the full article. (http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20060215T000000-0500_98759_OBS_CHURCH_WARNS_AGAINST_GAY_MARRIAGE.a sp)

How do you all feel about this?

[nuhsenutten]

i think the laws should be ammended to prevent this from happening. we cannot allow even the slighest chance of this happening to be left open.

we do not want to deteriorate to the state in the us where they have gay bishops or even gay marriages:eusa_naug

[Justice]

The Church is very vocal about this (so nobaddy cyaan seh di church did silent):

This bill of rights has been around for 6 years and the church just felt like taking it up :eusa_clap

There is one aspect of the bill that I support and that is to kick “religion” out of the public. Back in high school students were forced to go to devotions in the morning, I had a “Jesus only” friend who never like aspect of the devotion yet he was forced to accept the devotional message every morning. People should have the right not to be forced to participate in any activity, I wouldn’t want to know that I send my son to a school and the teacher are forcing him to praise ‘Selasie’ or some cow god.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


I wouldn’t want to know that I send my son to a school and the teacher are forcing him to praise ‘Selasie’ or some cow god.

I can't say I know of any school in Jamaica which forces children or any persons to participate in religion which they are not a part of.
I may be proven wrong.

At my alma mater there where several people who practiced different reiligons and they were excuse from Religious Education classes, mind you their attendance at devotion was required for obvious reasons but they weren't required to pray or engage in any rituals contrary to their religion.

Izemi-Clem

[ramesh]

At the High School I attended, if you were found not attending the morning devotion you could recieve a detention.

[Justice]

Student of all religion had to attend devotion ever morning even Rastafarian children were in devotion. Do you take the public transport? I really hate when the preachers come on the bus with their tambourine and preach for the entire trip it’s annoying, if I want to hear preaching I go to church. Most persons will accept Christian preachers on the public bus but they would not want to see no Rasta man preaching about ‘Selasie’ on the same bus. Why should some people be subjected to a particular religion? I want the right not to have these people preaching to me while I travel to my business.

I hope the Christians on this site don’t take me for an Atheist because I really am not, I just think fair is ‘fear’.

[acidblade]

Do you take the public transport? I really hate when the preachers come on the bus with their tambourine and preach for the entire trip it’s annoying, if I want to hear preaching I go to church.
Quite So.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Student of all religion had to attend devotion ever morning even Rastafarian children were in devotion. Do you take the public transport? I really hate when the preachers come on the bus with their tambourine and preach for the entire trip it’s annoying, if I want to hear preaching I go to church. Most persons will accept Christian preachers on the public bus but they would not want to see no Rasta man preaching about ‘Selasie’ on the same bus. Why should some people be subjected to a particular religion? I want the right not to have these people preaching to me while I travel to my business.

I hope the Christians on this site don’t take me for an Atheist because I really am not, I just think fair is ‘fear’.

Nobody forces any religion on anybody in Jamaica. A preacher preaching in a bus is excercising his right to free speech. You can excercise your right to ignore him. A rasta preaching about Selassie in a similar bus would also be excercising his right to free speech, and people are also free to ignore what he says.

As for devotions in school, in my day, we had to go to assembly, and assembly wasn't exclusively about devotions, but also was where the students heard important announcements etc. There was prayer, and singing of the school song. Students were never forced to participate in prayer, but you had to sing the school song. :D

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

:icon_arro BCK
I would have to agree with Justice, anyone who is spitting all over the place (especially in your face), banging a tambourine and splitting your eardrums in the confined space of a bus is abusing the right of free speech.
And certainly they are encroaching on my rights, as I have no opportunity to go elsewhere if I find this objectionable.

A lot of these preachers believe that because they are spreading the gospel they have every right to take advantage of the hapless commuters.
Being Jamaica no one wants to voice an objection and be labeled as a pagan, so they suck it up and hope the sermon isn't a long one.

Izemi-Clem

[Arch_Angel]

Don't think we need to wait too long before any form of religion will be prohibited from public display. People will want to keep God or gods in a specific building called the church or a sanctuary. So persons can go about their daily lives without God interrupting.

Can you imagine the day telling your friend about God is going to be illegal? Hope I'm not around for that. ;)

[Gillion]

I will say that sometimes the bus thing is rough.

[Arch_Angel]

Talking 'bout the bus thing, the few times I have encountered these guys on the bus, I have been blessed by their little preaching and singing. One lady got the whole bus singing hymns. It was quite encouraging.

I pray God will bless them for trying to spread the gospel and bringing a little word of encouragement, even though some persons might have been inconvenienced with their encounter. :(

[Gillion]

Talking 'bout the bus thing, the few times I have encountered these guys on the bus, I have been blessed by their little preaching and singing. One lady got the whole bus singing hymns. It was quite encouraging.

I pray God will bless them for trying to spread the gospel and bringing a little word of encouragement, even though some persons might have been inconvenienced with their encounter. :(
You do beleive there is a time and place for everything right ?

[acidblade]

You do beleive there is a time and place for everything right ?
i'm saying :rolleyes:

[Juliet]

I don't get it, I just don't get. Jamaica has LEGAL strip clubs, but is totally up in arms over the loopholes which may present the possibility of gay marriages and bishops?

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

:icon_arro Juliet

What I do not overstand is your fixation with the Jamaican attitude toward homosexuality.

Anywhere and every country has its own double standards including your own Trinidad, which supports and encourages as part of their culture Carnival; which most people would consider lewd and hedonistic bacchanal.

By no means is Trinidad any beacon of virtue in the Caribbean.

In your country, transvestites and homosexuals maybe allowed to walk and carry on with impunity, we have decided, as country that we will not tolerate nor encourage this behaviour and neither will we "BOW" to international pressure to change our laws.

We all have our own mess to deal with in this Third World diaspora.. clean up yours and we'll exercise our independent right to do so with ours as we see fit to.
The homosexual issue (as far as I am concerned) is the least among the apostles as we have far greater issues to first deal with as a nation.

Izemi-Clem

[AngelsKiss]

I don't get it, I just don't get. Jamaica has LEGAL strip clubs, but is totally up in arms over the loopholes which may present the possibility of gay marriages and bishops?

Saying that Jamaica has legal strip clubs does not mean that everyone is in agreement with it. The various chuches have lobbied against it too.

In fact they are even against Spring Break because what looks like lewd behaviour by many of those who participate.

However, as with everything it takes time to get changes. I don't think anyone suggested that Jamaica is perfect. Where ever you (the general you) go in the world you will find problems.

Jamaicans are against gay marriage because the marjority believe it is wrong. If Jamaicans think that homosexuality is wrong then we have a right to put laws in place. While I will never support or condone any form of violence against them or any one else for that matter, I do believe we have a right to decide our laws within reason. In this case the majority speaks.

[Juliet]

Hail

:icon_arro Juliet

What I do not overstand is your fixation with the Jamaican attitude toward homosexuality.

Anywhere and every country has its own double standards including your own Trinidad, which supports and encourages as part of their culture Carnival; which most people would consider lewd and hedonistic bacchanal.

By no means is Trinidad any beacon of virtue in the Caribbean.

In your country, transvestites and homosexuals maybe allowed to walk and carry on with impunity, we have decided, as country that we will not tolerate nor encourage this behaviour and neither will we "BOW" to international pressure to change our laws.

We all have our own mess to deal with in this Third World diaspora.. clean up yours and we'll exercise our independent right to do so with ours as we see fit to.
The homosexual issue (as far as I am concerned) is the least among the apostles as we have far greater issues to first deal with as a nation.

Izemi-Clem


Don't get your panties in a bunch:rolleyes: ... no need to take it personally.
How come the churches arent as vocal about strip clubs as they are about the loopholes presented with gay marriages and priests etc..?

[Juliet]

Hail

:icon_arro Juliet

What I do not overstand is your fixation with the Jamaican attitude toward homosexuality.

Anywhere and every country has its own double standards including your own Trinidad, which supports and encourages as part of their culture Carnival; which most people would consider lewd and hedonistic bacchanal.

By no means is Trinidad any beacon of virtue in the Caribbean.

In your country, transvestites and homosexuals maybe allowed to walk and carry on with impunity, we have decided, as country that we will not tolerate nor encourage this behaviour and neither will we "BOW" to international pressure to change our laws.

We all have our own mess to deal with in this Third World diaspora.. clean up yours and we'll exercise our independent right to do so with ours as we see fit to.
The homosexual issue (as far as I am concerned) is the least among the apostles as we have far greater issues to first deal with as a nation.

Izemi-Clem

Actually, this is a sign that I may have hit the nail on the head.:eusa_thin

[BlackCryptoKnight]

How come the churches arent as vocal about strip clubs as they are about the loopholes presented with gay marriages and priests etc..?
Who says they aren't vocal about strip clubs? How do you know they aren't as vocal about strip clubs? The church speaks out about sin and lawlessness all the time. The problem is that many people choose not to listen, and many assume that because a press conference hasn't been called, or they don't hear or see something in the news about it, that the church is silent. That's not the case.

The church is represented by its members, so everytime a member of the church speaks out in any forum about any injustice, sin or corruption in accordance with the doctrines of the church, then the church is speaking out.

[AngelsKiss]

Don't get your panties in a bunch:rolleyes: ... no need to take it personally.

:icon_arro Izemi

Whose panties have you been borrowing?:dwl: :dwl:


Gosh I am soooo silly :icon_mrgr


How come the churches arent as vocal about strip clubs as they are about the loopholes presented with gay marriages and priests etc..?

Juliet I posted above that the churches have lobbied against it. They even spoke out against spring break. Why do you think Jamaica does not have Casino gambling to date? I would say it is probably because of the church. Each time the subject comes up they go on the attack:)

[Juliet]

Who says they aren't vocal about strip clubs? How do you know they aren't as vocal about strip clubs? The church speaks out about sin and lawlessness all the time. The problem is that many people choose not to listen, and many assume that because a press conference hasn't been called, or they don't hear or see something in the news about it, that the church is silent. That's not the case.

The church is represented by its members, so everytime a member of the church speaks out in any forum about any injustice, sin or corruption in accordance with the doctrines of the church, then the church is speaking out.


Which forums are those?

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


Izemi

Whose panties have you been borrowing?


:icon_eek: Dunno .. Must be Juliet's :eusa_whis

Gosh I am soooo silly

I'll take your word for it :D


Don't get your panties in a bunch ... no need to take it personally.
I don't know what you're used to from the MEN in Trinidad but MAN an MAN in Ja. nuh inna dem ting deh :eusa_naug


You may find comfort in knowing that these strip clubs have become meeting places for our fast growing lesbian population.
I overstand that women are fast out numbering male customers, also the women are prefered as they tip better.
Imagine that. :eusa_thin
Maybe Nester-San can fill us in.

I also overstand that these clubs aren't exactly legal, they exist on a technicality which is overlooked. :eusa_shhh
I'll get the exact status later.

Izemi-Clem

[Gillion]

Lesbianism is not exactly illegal either in JA, as well as naked women dancing on stage. So thats one more reason the strip clubs exist.

Izemi ... rasta man .... yuh a tek weh oman baggy ?

[nuhsenutten]

Izemi ... rasta man .... yuh a tek weh oman baggy ?


:rofl: :rotflm:

[Justice]

Why do you think Jamaica does not have Casino gambling to date? I would say it is probably because of the church. Each time the subject comes up they go on the attack:)
Actually we do have casino gambling, maybe not on a large scale as America but we do. Most time people talk about the church not being vocal is because they believe that the ‘church’ as a ‘politically correct’ group is not providing enough guidance for the wider society. People expect a body such as the church to be constantly vocal similar to the way they have been on this gay issue. To think we have the most churches per square miles and yet we are the murder capitol of the world.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Actually we do have casino gambling, maybe not on a large scale as America but we do. Most time people talk about the church not being vocal is because they believe that the ‘church’ as a ‘politically correct’ group is not providing enough guidance for the wider society. People expect a body such as the church to be constantly vocal similar to the way they have been on this gay issue. To think we have the most churches per square miles and yet we are the murder capitol of the world.

How can people say that the church is not providing enough guidance, when they themselves do not attend or subscribe to the teachings of the church? How many of those critics are devout Christians who attend church to hear the teachings and receive the guidance? That's my problem with critics who voice the sentiment that "The church isn't doing enough". They feel that in order to be recognized as doing something, the church must be constantly in the media. Rubbish. The churh is doing what it is supposed to do - teach the Word of God. People aren't doing what they are supposed to do - heed the Word of God. That's why the world can presume to label us as being the "murder capital". The devil works hardest where he finds the most resistance.

[AngelsKiss]

How can people say that the church is not providing enough guidance, when they themselves do not attend or subscribe to the teachings of the church?

The truth is the church is in a no win position. If they speak out too much, you hear they are trying to force their views on everyone and if they do not speak out enough...well you know the answer to that.

Like I said before though, Jamaica is not the only one with contradictory views or laws. This happens in every country for the simple reason that not everyone will see things in the same way.

The most important thing is that those of us who can make a positive difference should try to do so.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


Izemi ... rasta man .... yuh a tek weh oman baggy ?

Why not??? ;)
Don't you :icon_ques

The machines that we have in Jamaica are considered gaming machines and I think by definition you would need more than that to be considered a Casino.
So to be correct we don't have casinos in Ja., unlike Trinidad and other Caribbean countries.

In fact it is said that this has been holding the tourism industry, as many people travel for that purpose.
Trinidad celebrate it's millionth visitor way before we did and casinos are considered the major reason.

Word is that why we see so many gaming establishments is because the government plans to legalize casinos very soon.

Izemi-Clem

[AngelsKiss]

Hail
The machines that we have in Jamaica are considered gaming machines and I think by definition you would need more than that to be considered a Casino.
So to be correct we don't have casinos in Ja., unlike Trinidad and other Caribbean countries.
Izemi-Clem

I just saw Justice post and was about to respond but you beat me to it :)

One thing's for sure, as soon as the JA govt. mention legalising casino gambling, the Church with definitely go on the "war path" to stop it:)

[Justice]

The machines that we have in Jamaica are considered gaming machines and I think by definition you would need more than that to be considered a Casino.
So to be correct we don't have casinos in Ja., unlike Trinidad and other Caribbean countries.

It seem I had the wrong concept of what is a casino, my apologies.

[nuhsenutten]

Hail



Why not??? ;)
Don't you :icon_ques


Izemi-Clem


tek off and tek away a two totally different thing Izemi ;)

[acidblade]

Hail



Why not??? ;)
Don't you :icon_ques


:eusa_clap :dwl: :rofl:

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


tek off and tek away a two totally different thing Izemi

They are??? :eusa_eh:

My BAD :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Izemi-Clem

[Manu]

Whew...the responses in this thread...my word.


Anyways....

:icon_arro Juliet

You seem to have this deep rooted problem with Jamaican men? What is the real underlying issue? Every oppurtunity you get you single out us. Whappen man. Hop offa wi name nuh? Homosexuality is illegal in the US. Yes...a first world country. Apple of the Caribbean peoples' eye and yet they probably have the most homosexual men in the western hemisphere. Why not call up their names? Why it's always Jamaica? Suppose I come on here everyday talking bout the Trini-f*gs at UWI, you'd have your undies in a knot right? FYI, strip clubs are illegal in Jamaica, but as Izemi said, they operate on a technicality. Besides our justice system is overally corrupted so those institution haven't been tackled as yet. They're even gay bars in the New Kingston area. We're not perfect nor do we profess to be but please dont be so condescending as if T&T is some beacon of virtue shining bright in the Caribbean.

:icon_arro Izemi

I'm pretty sure that there is a Casino in mobay across from Margeuritaville. It has the big lights like Las Vegas, scrolling marquee that says "Casino Gambling". What about that one?

:icon_arro A_A

I sometimes am annoyed by the preachers but I attribute it simply to the devil. If they're talking crap, I will tune them out. But sometimes their stories are encouraging and you can't help but thank God for the early devotion, especially if you left your house w/o whispering a word of thanks for seeing another day. They're exercising their right of speech. There are several different modes to commute to destination. There is driving, (whether by taxi or your own vehicle). There is riding a bicycle. There is walking. There is also the option of taking another bus. It's called Public Transportation for a reason you know. They didn't come into your house or private space. If he spits on you when talking then be civil and ask the man to please cover his mouth. Is that so hard? Can't you be civil? I've been on buses where Rastafarians preach about Selassie and even have scriptures to back their claim(seemingly). So what? Some of unu answer phones in the bus and chat all sorts of rubbish in my hearing. Chat and laugh boisterously about previous activities which aren't for public hearing. Some play lewd music and you either come off the bus or you block it out. Why is it so different now? Word of God hurt unu ears so much? A_A, I hope I don't live to see that neither...when any utterance of the name of God will cause my demise.

For those who don't want to be subjected to religious beliefs...don't worry. If you take the time to read your bible, you'll see that that day isn't very far away. I trust you will be happier then as your world will be a quieter (better) place.

Adieu

[acidblade]

:icon_arro Juliet

You seem to have this deep rooted problem with Jamaican men? What is the real underlying issue? Every oppurtunity you get you single out us. Whappen man. Hop offa wi name nuh? Homosexuality is illegal in the US. Yes...a first world country. Apple of the Caribbean peoples' eye and yet they probably have the most homosexual men in the western hemisphere. Why not call up their names? Why it's always Jamaica? Suppose I come on here everyday talking bout the Trini-f*gs at UWI, you'd have your undies in a knot right? FYI, strip clubs are illegal in Jamaica, but as Izemi said, they operate on a technicality. Besides our justice system is overally corrupted so those institution haven't been tackled as yet. They're even gay bars in the New Kingston area. We're not perfect nor do we profess to be but please dont be so condescending as if T&T is some beacon of virtue shining bright in the Caribbean.


Amen. :icon_mrgr

[nester-san]

The church is represented by its members, so everytime a member of the church speaks out in any forum about any injustice, sin or corruption in accordance with the doctrines of the church, then the church is speaking out.

So When Man like G.W. Bush Say God tell him to Invade Iraq as a church member man he is representing the church ?

He thinks he is speaking about the Injustice, and Curruption and Sin that is going on in Iraq and America's need to redeem them from themselves.

Generalising is not like you my friend !

[Justice]

Whew
I'm pretty sure that there is a Casino in mobay across from Margeuritaville. It has the big lights like Las Vegas, scrolling marquee that says "Casino Gambling". What about that one?
That’s the same thing I was thinking, and then there is the ‘Acropolis’. I don’t know the difference.



They're exercising their right of speech. There are several different modes to commute to destination. There is driving, (whether by taxi or your own vehicle). There is riding a bicycle. There is walking. There is also the option of taking another bus. It's called Public Transportation for a reason you know. They didn't come into your house or private space. If he spits on you when talking then be civil and ask the man to please cover his mouth. Is that so hard? Can't you be civil? I've been on buses where Rastafarians preach about Selassie and even have scriptures to back their claim(seemingly). So what? Some of unu answer phones in the bus and chat all sorts of rubbish in my hearing. Chat and laugh boisterously about previous activities which aren't for public hearing. Some play lewd music and you either come off the bus or you block it out. Why is it so different now? Word of God hurt unu ears so much? A_A, I hope I don't live to see that neither...when any utterance of the name of God will cause my demise.

For those who don't want to be subjected to religious beliefs...don't worry. If you take the time to read your bible, you'll see that that day isn't very far away. I trust you will be happier then as your world will be a quieter (better) place. Adieu

I go to church and I grew up in church, I am not against the church, but people have a right not to be bothered in public places.

Free speech comes at a price and you should know this Manu, people don’t just get up and speak whatever they want wherever they want. I am sure you wouldn’t want me to go on a public bus everyday and preach against black people, calling them all sort of names, it’s the same way people don’t want to be preached to because they are of a different belief. BTW are you saying that if I take a bus and a preacher comes on the bus after me and start preaching that I should come off the bus and take another one?

I can’t continue with this, Manu you are looking at the thing from an emotional point of view (you are a Christian). This is not about the preaching on the bus alone, this is not about Christianity it is about the right of every individual to have a choice. A choice not to have people trying to stuff things down their ears in public place.

[ramesh]

I'm pretty sure that there is a Casino in mobay across from Margeuritaville. It has the big lights like Las Vegas, scrolling marquee that says "Casino Gambling". What about that one? I'm sure it says "Casino Gaming", not gambling. The place is called Coral Cliff. What they have are mostly Poker machines and a few other games Nothing major. :)

[Gillion]

Gameing is not illegal ... since we have th Gaming and Betting Commision.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

So When Man like G.W. Bush Say God tell him to Invade Iraq as a church member man he is representing the church ?

He thinks he is speaking about the Injustice, and Curruption and Sin that is going on in Iraq and America's need to redeem them from themselves.

Generalising is not like you my friend !

There is a distinction made in Christianity, between churches - the various gatherings of worshipers claiming to be of God, and "The Church" - the one true body of true believers who actually live according to God's word.

Are George Bush's actions and speaking consistent with the character of God's true church? Bush may very well be representing some "church", but unless he speaks and acts in accordance with the way in which God's true church is supposed to speak and act, then he is not representing God's true church.

We all represent something when we speak or act. What we truly represent is determined by what principles our speach and action conform to.

There's no generalization there nester-san. My point was that people make up the church, and those people represent the church when they speak or act. We should not only acknowledge that the church (the collective Christian churches in Jamaica) speaks only when pastors or preachers issue a press release, but we should consider that sermons within the church, outreach programmes by the church in the communities, and even one to one contact between church members and other citizens counts as the church "speaking".

[BlackCryptoKnight]

This is not about the preaching on the bus alone, this is not about Christianity it is about the right of every individual to have a choice. A choice not to have people trying to stuff things down their ears in public place.

The reality of life is that each day we have things "stuffed down our ears in public places".

I have a problem with people playing loud music in residential areas at night while I'm trying to sleep. But when I express this, I'm "fighting down di dance" and "hating on people's right to express and entertain themselves". Yet when I speak to someone about God, I'm "stuffing Christianity down their throat".

Funny thing, this "freedom of speech".

[Juliet]

Whew...the responses in this thread...my word.


Anyways....

:icon_arro Juliet

You seem to have this deep rooted problem with Jamaican men? What is the real underlying issue? Every oppurtunity you get you single out us. Whappen man. Hop offa wi name nuh? Homosexuality is illegal in the US. Yes...a first world country. Apple of the Caribbean peoples' eye and yet they probably have the most homosexual men in the western hemisphere. Why not call up their names? Why it's always Jamaica? Suppose I come on here everyday talking bout the Trini-f*gs at UWI, you'd have your undies in a knot right? FYI, strip clubs are illegal in Jamaica, but as Izemi said, they operate on a technicality. Besides our justice system is overally corrupted so those institution haven't been tackled as yet. They're even gay bars in the New Kingston area. We're not perfect nor do we profess to be but please dont be so condescending as if T&T is some beacon of virtue shining bright in the Caribbean.




No problem here Manu- no problem at all. In order for me to understand the culture I have to ask questions - contraversial et al. On this note let me challenge you to post threads on what you think are Trinidad and Tobago's shortcomings; and i'm not talking about the light stuff!- PLEASE!

Not afraid of a challenge- are you?:icon_neut

[Bahama Mama]

Homosexuality is illegal in the US. Yes...a first world country.


You cannot legally penalize someone for their sexual preference, so that statement is not true. There are four states in the US that still have sodomy laws targetted specifically at homosexuals on their books. That is 4 out of what 52 states. In many of the states the sodomy laws against homosexuals were reppealed and taken off the books.

Click here (http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/usa.htm)

[coodeh]

It baffles me when my fellow Jamaicans act morally superior when the only area where we seem to take a stand is in homosexuality. Jamaica has the second highest murders per capita in the world...It is a HUGE thing....we try to dismiss it as something trivial but it is not...A lot of these "heathen" or "gay" countries that we like to talk about..ie European Countries, and Canada have very low crime rates and that is because they respect human rights. We in Jamaica and in the Caribbean and even in the black communities in America talk about spanking as if it is the best thing...funny thing we have the highest crime rates. We encourage violence in our songs..yet we wonder why Jamaica has a crime problem..Yet our morals change with what is convenient for us..As soon as our reggae artist realize how much they stand to lose...they start changing their lyrics et al. Jamaican guys talk bout how them nah bow? What the heck? Just to save face in front..they talk about not backing their fist(masturbating) when in fact a lot of people do these things. We just need to be honest with ourselves..Hearing some of you guys talking on here you would think the only thing Jamaican guys do is have sex in the missionary position in our bedrooms when we are married....sadly the statistics prove differently..cuz less than 20 percent of our kids are born in wedlock...These are the issues that the church need to tackle before getting on their soapbox about charter of rights and brokeback mountains..In fact Christians just need to live their lives because that is the greatest witness..arguing about homosexuality is futile....mark my words it's just a matter of time before it is legal in Jamaica and Christians alienate these people with their hypocritical diatribe.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Bwoy, it looks like the church salt fi true. When they speak out against sin, people have all kinds of chat about hypcocrisy and forcing things on people. Then said people will turn around and accuse the church of not doing enough.

I say, bun out all sin, all the time and don't biznizz what anybody want to say.

The Church has every right to speak out against homosexuality.

[Juliet]

FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME -Nobody said that the church shouldnt speak out against homosexuality!!!:eusa_wall

[BlackCryptoKnight]

FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME -Nobody said that the church shouldnt speak out against homosexuality!!!:eusa_wall

1. You haven't expressed the above sentiment on this forum 1 million times.



These are the issues that the church need to tackle before getting on their soapbox about charter of rights and brokeback mountains..In fact Christians just need to live their lives because that is the greatest witness..arguing about homosexuality is futile....mark my words it's just a matter of time before it is legal in Jamaica and Christians alienate these people with their hypocritical diatribe.

2. Essentially, coodeh is saying that the church should stop speaking out against homosexuality until it deals with other issues.

[Juliet]

1. You haven't expressed the above sentiment on this forum 1 million times.






:rolleyes: You fuh real?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

:rolleyes: You fuh real?

:icon_mrgr :icon_twis

[coodeh]

2. Essentially, coodeh is saying that the church should stop speaking out against homosexuality until it deals with other issues

Blackcryptoknight....Jamaica is a free country so the church has everyright to speak out on whatever topic they want to....Just like the average citizen has every right to ignore them...However if the church wants to be effective then they need to change their strategy..You cannot pick your sin..That's not how Christianity works... yOu cannot ignore the fact that most of the kids in Jamaica and in the church are born out of wedlock..You cannot ignore the fact that most people see nothing wrong with fornicating and adultery. Do you think the average person who is concerned about homosexuality in Jamaica is a moral person....Not in my neck of the woods...The guys who bash gays where I live have 5 women, sleep around with everybody. Sees nothing wrong with stealing if it benefits them..Thinks nothing of being obese or consuming alcohol to the point of drunkeness..If they have no problems with those why gays? The church doesn't speak about that so why gays? There were five people killed in St Thomas over the weekend..kids had their throats slit..nothing from the church..So why do you think rational people are going to pay any attention to this particular soapbox of the church...Furthermore I think Jesus would spend a lot more time hanging out with the gays than he would with "church people" but that's a nother topic.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Blackcryptoknight....Jamaica is a free country so the church has everyright to speak out on whatever topic they want to....Just like the average citizen has every right to ignore them...However if the church wants to be effective then they need to change their strategy..You cannot pick your sin..That's not how Christianity works... yOu cannot ignore the fact that most of the kids in Jamaica and in the church are born out of wedlock..You cannot ignore the fact that most people see nothing wrong with fornicating and adultery. Do you think the average person who is concerned about homosexuality in Jamaica is a moral person....Not in my neck of the woods...The guys who bash gays where I live have 5 women, sleep around with everybody. Sees nothing wrong with stealing if it benefits them..Thinks nothing of being obese or consuming alcohol to the point of drunkeness..If they have no problems with those why gays? The church doesn't speak about that so why gays? There were five people killed in St Thomas over the weekend..kids had their throats slit..nothing from the church..So why do you think rational people are going to pay any attention to this particular soapbox of the church...Furthermore I think Jesus would spend a lot more time hanging out with the gays than he would with "church people" but that's a nother topic.

coodeh, I disagree with your view that the church doesn't speak out against other sin, and that they pick their sins to speak out against. This is not the case. The church speaks out against all sin. People only think they pick a sin, because they only remember recent press coverage of "official" church statements. What do you think pastors are preaching about each weekend? What are the many outreach programmes in communities trying to get across to people?

To say that the church is ignoring adultery, fornication, substance abuse etc. is just plain wrong. It's not a true or factual statement. When pastor Blair spoke out against the overt sexual attire of many women today, and loose behaviour in general, many "learned" people took issue with that. They would rather the church make to negative remarks about their beloved styles and fashions. When the Adventist pastors spoke out against the "Bling Bling" funerals, and the associated debauchery, drunkenness and drug use , the defenders of the grass roots and culture condemned them as being insensitive towards the culture and heritage of the common man. When the church speaks out against gambling and casinos, the money men and money women blaze fire on the church because they are fighting down their money making schemes. If the church listens to all the criticisms and follows the argument you are putting forth coodeh, the church would just be silent, since every sin it speaks out against, prompts the same kind of argument you have put forward - "Why make noise about sin X, when sin Y is going on over there".

The church clearly can't please everybody.

[coodeh]

coodeh, I disagree with your view that the church doesn't speak out against other sin, and that they pick their sins to speak out against. This is not the case. The church speaks out against all sin. People only think they pick a sin, because they only remember recent press coverage of "official" church statements. What do you think pastors are preaching about each weekend? What are the many outreach programmes in communities trying to get across to people?

To say that the church is ignoring adultery, fornication, substance abuse etc. is just plain wrong. It's not a true or factual statement. When pastor Blair spoke out against the overt sexual attire of many women today, and loose behaviour in general, many "learned" people took issue with that. They would rather the church make to negative remarks about their beloved styles and fashions. When the Adventist pastors spoke out against the "Bling Bling" funerals, and the associated debauchery, drunkenness and drug use , the defenders of the grass roots and culture condemned them as being insensitive towards the culture and heritage of the common man. When the church speaks out against gambling and casinos, the money men and money women blaze fire on the church because they are fighting down their money making schemes. If the church listens to all the criticisms and follows the argument you are putting forth coodeh, the church would just be silent, since every sin it speaks out against, prompts the same kind of argument you have put forward - "Why make noise about sin X, when sin Y is going on over there".

The church clearly can't please everybody.
__________________
Blackkryptoknight...thanks for responding...Several issues regarding your post.Homosexuality is a big thing in the Jamaica and in the Caribbean. There are several reasons why this topic is so controversial. Firstly, It's debateable whether or not Homosexuality is genetics..(whichever side u choose iT's still debateable) Secondly, There seems to be a condoned violence at least here in Jamaica regarding homosexuality. thirdly not everybody in Jamaica adhere to christian principles and so to them..it is a non issue. I do believe that this is a safe topic for the Church in Jamaica and as a result..They spend a lot of time on this issue versus others. If the church says to the average person that sex out of marriage is wrong and try to legislate it like homosexuality there will be a huge uproar in Jamaica. The same thing goes for adultery.I think that's what happens when Christians become political figureheads.
Regarding Hero Blair..It's hard for him to preach to people about bling bling when he has his castle in Portmore. Hero Blair made the statement that he did not want certain people dressing a particular way coming into his church..First of all it's God's church..The Church is a place for sinners..a hospital for sick souls..these are the type of people that Herro Blair should be inviting to come into his church.We have changed the church to fit our culture..to the point that I think Jesus hardly recognizes it. We have no compassion for the poor. I was in church last Sunday and a beggar came in and the Elder ushered him out!!!We are more caught up in the appearance of being Holy than holiness itself..We need to stop preaching and living ourl Christian lives..That is the best thing we can do...People dont really care what we have to say..they care about how we live. Imagine if the homosexuals in Jamaica stop being homosexuals will that save them from hell if they dont have a relationship with God?I think there are 10 times more fornicators and adulteres out there than gays so if the church wants to make a stand..That is what they should attack...afterall that would cover homosexuality as well...then people might start to listen. Apparently the church is doing something wrong if so many people are critical or at the message is not being received..

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Blackkryptoknight...thanks for responding...Several issues regarding your post.Homosexuality is a big thing in the Jamaica and in the Caribbean. There are several reasons why this topic is so controversial. Firstly, It's debateable whether or not Homosexuality is genetics..(whichever side u choose iT's still debateable) Secondly, There seems to be a condoned violence at least here in Jamaica regarding homosexuality. thirdly not everybody in Jamaica adhere to christian principles and so to them..it is a non issue. I do believe that this is a safe topic for the Church in Jamaica and as a result..They spend a lot of time on this issue versus others. If the church says to the average person that sex out of marriage is wrong and try to legislate it like homosexuality there will be a huge uproar in Jamaica. The same thing goes for adultery.I think that's what happens when Christians become political figureheads.

How I see it, whether people think that speaking out against homosexuality is a "safe" thing to do or not, speaking out against it is the right thing to do. If the church didn't speak out against homosexuality at all, then that would be a significant problem. So to me, they're just doing what they should be doing in that regard. The church does say to the average person that sex before and outside of marriage is wrong. People ignore the church and do their thing anyway. The church shouldn't stop speaking out about sin because some people think they are hypocritical when they do so.


Regarding Hero Blair..It's hard for him to preach to people about bling bling when he has his castle in Portmore.
I don't think he spoke about bling. He was talking about the suggestive fashions that many women tend to wear these days. But even then, he never said people shouldn't be prosperous and have a nice house ;)


Hero Blair made the statement that he did not want certain people dressing a particular way coming into his church..First of all it's God's church..The Church is a place for sinners..a hospital for sick souls..these are the type of people that Herro Blair should be inviting to come into his church.
I think the point he was trying to get across was that we all have a responsibility to carry ourselves in a respectful manner, and that the House of God should be treated with respect. Going to church skimpily clad - not because you can't afford or do any better, but because of vanity, is disrespectful. Yes, accept people, but still, people have to know that there is proper conduct and improper conduct. You can't help someone heal unless they first acknowledge they need healing.


We have changed the church to fit our culture..to the point that I think Jesus hardly recognizes it. We have no compassion for the poor. I was in church last Sunday and a beggar came in and the Elder ushered him out!!!We are more caught up in the appearance of being Holy than holiness itself..We need to stop preaching and living ourl Christian lives..That is the best thing we can do...People dont really care what we have to say..they care about how we live. Imagine if the homosexuals in Jamaica stop being homosexuals will that save them from hell if they dont have a relationship with God?I think there are 10 times more fornicators and adulteres out there than gays so if the church wants to make a stand..That is what they should attack...afterall that would cover homosexuality as well...then people might start to listen. Apparently the church is doing something wrong if so many people are critical or at the message is not being received..

Yes breddrin, there is much hypocricy in churches, and people's focus isn't always on what is truly right, but rather on appearing to be right. So yes, there are issues the church has to deal with, they aren't perfect. But stopping preaching isn't the solution. Part of living the Christian life is sharing the Word of God with others - preaching and teaching. Can't get away from that. People may not accept what we have to say, but it is not up to us to change their hearts. That change is up to them and God.

2 Timothy 4:2 NIV

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

The church has to speak out, regardless of what people think, or how it looks.

Bear in mind though, that when we say "the church" we are generalizing. There are many churches, and not all churches can be said to be doing as they should. So the challenge for people is to find a church that sticks as closely as possible to the ideals the Creator intended.

[coodeh]

How I see it, whether people think that speaking out against homosexuality is a "safe" thing to do or not, speaking out against it is the right thing to do. If the church didn't speak out against homosexuality at all, then that would be a significant problem. So to me, they're just doing what they should be doing in that regard. The church does say to the average person that sex before and outside of marriage is wrong. People ignore the church and do their thing anyway. The church shouldn't stop speaking out about sin because some people think they are hypocritical when they do so.

Let me say this again...The church is free to talk about homosexuality if it wishes..Even though I think this is like putting a band aid on a huge open infected wound. The church is not only speaking about homosexuality..they want to outlaw it in the Charter of Rights...That is where the problems comes in..They are beginning to legislate sin. Christians cannot force people to do what is right..God didn't even do that! He gave man free choice..There is a big gap when Christian is attempting to legislate homosexuality and fornication and adultery are not paid any attention to..these are bigger issues than homosexuality. They might say fornication is wrong and adultery is wrong but not to the extent that they go out of the way to say that homosexuality is wrong. i am just stating what is obvious to me, my Christian friends and a lot of friends who do not adhere to Christian principles. And yes the church is hypocritical...I am hypocritical...you are hypocritical...there is no use going around it.


don't think he spoke about bling. He was talking about the suggestive fashions that many women tend to wear these days. But even then, he never said people shouldn't be prosperous and have a nice house

Well I have a problem with lavish lifestyles and preachers..especially in a poor country like Jamaica where majority of the people are poor..I wonder how many street kids Hero Blair have livng in that mansion.. I highly doubt that Jesus would be living in Drumblair or Jackshills or the hills of Portmore cavorting around in an escalade if he was physically living in Jamaica today


I think the point he was trying to get across was that we all have a responsibility to carry ourselves in a respectful manner, and that the House of God should be treated with respect. Going to church skimpily clad - not because you can't afford or do any better, but because of vanity, is disrespectful. Yes, accept people, but still, people have to know that there is proper conduct and improper conduct. You can't help someone heal unless they first acknowledge they need healing.

Christians have a responsibility to conduct themselves in a better way...not non-Christians...It's not our jobs as Christians to judge non Christians.....YOur point is one of the reasons why my sister is not in church today. I invited her to church and she wore a short skirt because she did not have any "church clothes" and the first thing the lady said when she entered was why did she choose to wear that church..not knowing that thatwas all she had...I can relate countless stories like that.....our body is the house of God..not some building! The church building itself is irrelevant..God does not dwell there. He dwells in the hearts of people...Cmon Blackcryptoknignt. We need to meet people where they are...We dont tell a burnt victim to put on clothes and bathe before he comes t the hospital...why should we expect that of sinners?


Yes breddrin, there is much hypocricy in churches, and people's focus isn't always on what is truly right, but rather on appearing to be right. So yes, there are issues the church has to deal with, they aren't perfect. But stopping preaching isn't the solution. Part of living the Christian life is sharing the Word of God with others - preaching and teaching. Can't get away from that. People may not accept what we have to say, but it is not up to us to change their hearts. That change is up to them and God.

I have know problem with preaching and teaching..to me they are the same..but it's hard for a thief to tell another thief to stop stealing when he is stealingmmmy advice is to live your life like Christ..Dont think we are better than the sinners because we struggle with different sins...and in so doing we will open the eyes of many people. I used to get on my brother all the time about smoking weed, getting his life in order et al. He would ignore me and we would be in constant battle..then I stopped. I encouraged him about the positive things in his life,,He is a lot more willing to listen to me now and even though he still smokes weed..He doesn't do it as frequently and he doesn't do it in front of me....at least that is a start....People imitate lifestyles..not words

[BlackCryptoKnight]

The church is not only speaking about homosexuality..they want to outlaw it in the Charter of Rights...That is where the problems comes in..They are beginning to legislate sin. Christians cannot force people to do what is right..God didn't even do that! He gave man free choice..
Sin has been legislated for a long time. Murder is illegal. Theft is illegal. Bearing false witness is illegal (in a court trial - perjury), the Jews used to execute adulterers in Biblical times (some Arab nations still do this). All the church is trying to ensure is that the Charter of rights, doesn't have loopholes that would make homosexual relationships recognizeable by law, and afforded the same protections, and entitlements as heterosexual ones. They don't want the sanctity of marriage devalued by giving homosexual marriages the same status as heterosexual marriages. There's nothing wrong with the churches position on that. They aren't lobbying for homosexuals to be locked up for their preference.


There is a big gap when Christian is attempting to legislate homosexuality and fornication and adultery are not paid any attention to..these are bigger issues than homosexuality. They might say fornication is wrong and adultery is wrong but not to the extent that they go out of the way to say that homosexuality is wrong. i am just stating what is obvious to me, my Christian friends and a lot of friends who do not adhere to Christian principles. And yes the church is hypocritical...I am hypocritical...you are hypocritical...there is no use going around it.
The law doesn't recognize adulterous relationships. The law recognizes marriages and "common law" relationships, in which the man and woman are living essentially like husband and wife. In common law situations, you could argue that they are fornicating, because they are not formally married. You could also argue that in a sense, they are married, since they are living with a commitment, even though they have not gone through the traditional ceremonies. On the basis of this commitment, the law recognizes the relationship, and provides protection for those in it (maintenance etc.). It is this kind of legal recognition for homosexual relationships which the church is fighting.

And they do make great effort to say that adultery, fornication, and any form of sexual perversion is wrong. They do so quite strongly. Maybe the church you visit doesn't, but the one I do does so, and others too. The mistake you and others may be making is in thinking that a strong statement that something is wrong can only be made by having press coverage, and making a big hype. That's not the only way to get a message across. And even then, the church has done that when it speaks out against other sins.



Well I have a problem with lavish lifestyles and preachers..especially in a poor country like Jamaica where majority of the people are poor..I wonder how many street kids Hero Blair have livng in that mansion.. I highly doubt that Jesus would be living in Drumblair or Jackshills or the hills of Portmore cavorting around in an escalade if he was physically living in Jamaica today
The only problem with a pastor living in a nice house, or having nice things, is if they were gotten because of misuse of church funds, or if the pastor values such material things over God - something which all of us should be wary of. If the Lord has seen it fit to bless a pastor with nice things, and the pastor remains focused on what is important, and continues to do the Lord's work, then I have no problem with, or business with the things he has. That's between him and God. For any person, the love of material things pose a threat to their salvation. So if you're going to have a problem with a pastor because of his material posessions, then you'd have to have a problem with everybody living in Drumblair, Jackshills, or everybody who has some wealth. They're all facing the same temptations.


Christians have a responsibility to conduct themselves in a better way...not non-Christians...It's not our jobs as Christians to judge non Christians.....YOur point is one of the reasons why my sister is not in church today. I invited her to church and she wore a short skirt because she did not have any "church clothes" and the first thing the lady said when she entered was why did she choose to wear that church..not knowing that thatwas all she had...I can relate countless stories like that.....our body is the house of God..not some building! The church building itself is irrelevant..God does not dwell there. He dwells in the hearts of people...Cmon Blackcryptoknignt. We need to meet people where they are...We dont tell a burnt victim to put on clothes and bathe before he comes t the hospital...why should we expect that of sinners?

You have a valid point there.

Consider this though, you will have some people, like your sister, who at the time, may not be in a position to do better, but their intentions are in the right place. Human beings can't always discern that and should approach everyone with civility, and compassion. You also have those who fully well know better, yet chose not to do better. I think pastor Blair was referring to the latter situation. Trust me, you have people who go to church, dressed "to kill" with the sole intention of "catching a man", and their behaviour is quite loose. The church has to speak out against that kind of thing.


I have know problem with preaching and teaching..to me they are the same..but it's hard for a thief to tell another thief to stop stealing when he is stealing
Then how can any of us tell another person to do good, and turn from bad, since we are all sinners, and to God, one sin is as bad as the next? None of us are sinless. So should we all be silent and not encourage each other to do what is right?

Is a thief wrong to tell another person not to steal? Is the advice given wrong? Does the thief not know intimately the negative impact on the soul when one choses to do such a thing? Isn't the thief qualified to testify to the damage that is done when one steals?


mmmy advice is to live your life like Christ..Dont think we are better than the sinners because we struggle with different sins...and in so doing we will open the eyes of many people. I used to get on my brother all the time about smoking weed, getting his life in order et al. He would ignore me and we would be in constant battle..then I stopped. I encouraged him about the positive things in his life,,He is a lot more willing to listen to me now and even though he still smokes weed..He doesn't do it as frequently and he doesn't do it in front of me....at least that is a start....People imitate lifestyles..not words

To live your life like Christ, is to encourage others to do the same, and to encourage others to turn from sin. You can't separate living the Christian life from preaching the Christian way. You can't make people listen to you, but that doesn't mean you should stop saying what needs to be said.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

:icon_arro Coodeh

I believe that any group which seeks to organize themselves and lobby to have legislation changed to effect laws and regulations in their society to represent their value and belief system has the right to do so. It is the responsibility to every other citizen and group to themselves participate and have their views represented in determining the type of society they want to live in.

I find nothing wrong with the concept of "the church" or "government", I believe they are all necessary.
How well they function has nothing to do with their concept but ultimately with the people they intend to serve.
The strength of a church is dependent on its congregation, as well the strength of a government is dependent upon its citizens. How well they adhere to the ideals and practices determines how effective each institution is as well as how they are perceived.
It is the failure of the individual to exercise the discipline within themselves required by these concepts which causes them criticize the inadequacies of said concepts, using them as scapegoats to remove the responsibility from themselves.

I'll put it to you that the "reason" used for your sister not attending church may not a reason but an excuse.
Any group has the right to demand reverence from the individual participating in their congregation, what these stipulations are and what is considered as being irreverent varies; Rastafarians will not allow women who dress inappropriately to enter their tabernacle, similarly Muslims required shoes to be removed and feet washed before entering their mosque, I also know of some Muslim who required that a person washes his hands before touching the Koran.
Whatever these stipulations are, the focus is not on what you wear but the reverence and respect shown in worship.

Izemi-Clem

[coodeh]

Sin has been legislated for a long time. Murder is illegal. Theft is illegal. Bearing false witness is illegal (in a court trial - perjury), the Jews used to execute adulterers in Biblical times (some Arab nations still do this). All the church is trying to ensure is that the Charter of rights, doesn't have loopholes that would make homosexual relationships recognizeable by law, and afforded the same protections, and entitlements as heterosexual ones. They don't want the sanctity of marriage devalued by giving homosexual marriages the same status as heterosexual marriages. There's nothing wrong with the churches position on that. They aren't lobbying for homosexuals to be locked up for their preference.

Government will legislate "sins" called laws. Unless we live in a theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Iran then it will be contradictory for Christians to legislate sins. That is why we are having a problem now..Cuz we will either have to choose to live in a theocracy or a democracy...Most Jamaicans would revolt..including Christians if they live in one.(theocracy) The sancticty of marriage has been so devalued.and this is not a fault of the homosexuals. Britney Spears, People who have been married 5 times, Nikki Hilton..All the Jamaicans who marry just to get citizenship..If those aren't examples of the devaluation of marriage then I dont know what eklse is.I dont believe in gay marriage but that has nothing to do with this argument..I have a problem with Christians trying to change the privacy law just so that they can punish gays in the bedrooms.


The law doesn't recognize adulterous relationships. The law recognizes marriages and "common law" relationships, in which the man and woman are living essentially like husband and wife. In common law situations, you could argue that they are fornicating, because they are not formally married. You could also argue that in a sense, they are married, since they are living with a commitment, even though they have not gone through the traditional ceremonies. On the basis of this commitment, the law recognizes the relationship, and provides protection for those in it (maintenance etc.). It is this kind of legal recognition for homosexual relationships which the church is fighting.

This is not debateable...In Jamaica you do not risk being in jail for committing adultery..YOu do not go to jail for fornication...You will go to jail for a man having sex with another man and I guess a woman with a another woman.



And they do make great effort to say that adultery, fornication, and any form of sexual perversion is wrong. They do so quite strongly. Maybe the church you visit doesn't, but the one I do does so, and others too. The mistake you and others may be making is in thinking that a strong statement that something is wrong can only be made by having press coverage, and making a big hype. That's not the only way to get a message across. And even then, the church has done that when it speaks out against other sins.

I have never heard a minister going on tv or writing to the paper asking the Government to review the laws so that adultery and fornication et al are illegal or forbidden...They are currently doing this for homoseual relationships.


The only problem with a pastor living in a nice house, or having nice things, is if they were gotten because of misuse of church funds, or if the pastor values such material things over God - something which all of us should be wary of. If the Lord has seen it fit to bless a pastor with nice things, and the pastor remains focused on what is important, and continues to do the Lord's work, then I have no problem with, or business with the things he has. That's between him and God. For any person, the love of material things pose a threat to their salvation. So if you're going to have a problem with a pastor because of his material posessions, then you'd have to have a problem with everybody living in Drumblair, Jackshills, or everybody who has some wealth. They're all facing the same temptations

Valid...but the people in Drumblair are not telling people not to make materialism their priorities..Preachers are. Regardless How do you justify driving a BMW and a Porsche while your fellow brother or sister lives in a shack? How many of these preachers adopt these street kids inside their big homes? Probably they do in the corporate area...but here...zilch. That tells me a lot..without uttering a word.

Regarding the dress issue...leave that to Christians...dont judge non-christians...BTW If i choose to worship the Lord in jeans and T shirt..that's between me and God..Not Dr. Blair.


Is a thief wrong to tell another person not to steal? Is the advice given wrong? Does the thief not know intimately the negative impact on the soul when one choses to do such a thing? Isn't the thief qualified to testify to the damage that is done when one steals?


Not wrong..the message just wont be communicated...It depends the thief might think the other is just bad-mind.



To live your life like Christ, is to encourage others to do the same, and to encourage others to turn from sin. You can't separate living the Christian life from preaching the Christian way. You can't make people listen to you, but that doesn't mean you should stop saying what needs to be said.
__________________


True..but Christians do too much talking an not much living..That's why to most people Christianity is irrelevant..They really dont care what we have to say..Talk is cheap to them.

[coodeh]

Izemi-Clem wrote


I believe that any group which seeks to organize themselves and lobby to have legislation changed to effect laws and regulations in their society to represent their value and belief system has the right to do so. It is the responsibility to every other citizen and group to themselves participate and have their views represented in determining the type of society they want to live in.

I find nothing wrong with the concept of "the church" or "government", I believe they are all necessary.
How well they function has nothing to do with their concept but ultimately with the people they intend to serve.
The strength of a church is dependent on its congregation, as well the strength of a government is dependent upon its citizens. How well they adhere to the ideals and practices determines how effective each institution is as well as how they are perceived.

I agree..Thus the failure of the Church in Jamaica and our Government.



It is the failure of the individual to exercise the discipline within themselves required by these concepts which causes them criticize the inadequacies of said concepts, using them as scapegoats to remove the responsibility from themselves

I disagree,,,people can be critical of these issues even if they adhere to them..They might see the irrelevance or the hypocrisy and decide to criticize..I go to church every Sunday..I am very critical of the church..I dont think that the way the church is today is a reflection of what it is during Jesus' time...I go for different reasons. I dont smoke weed...I dont think it should be a crime...there are countless examples.



I'll put it to you that the "reason" used for your sister not attending church may not a reason but an excuse.
Any group has the right to demand reverence from the individual participating in their congregation, what these stipulations are and what is considered as being irreverent varies; Rastafarians will not allow women who dress inappropriately to enter their tabernacle, similarly Muslims required shoes to be removed and feet washed before entering their mosque, I also know of some Muslim who required that a person washes his hands before touching the Koran.
Whatever these stipulations are, the focus is not on what you wear but the reverence and respect shown in worship.

You may be right...She just doesn't agree with the way the church is..she still believes in God and endeavors to live accordingly...However she wasn't the one rushing to come to church..I was the one trying to encourage her...Hence the onus was on me and mot her..

YOu are absolutely right...it's not about what we wear..It's about who we worship.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

This is not debateable...In Jamaica you do not risk being in jail for committing adultery..YOu do not go to jail for fornication...You will go to jail for a man having sex with another man and I guess a woman with a another woman.
In Jamaica, there are no laws against homosexuality, but there is a law against sodomy. As such, it is not correct to say that people can be imprisoned for being homosexual, or commiting sexual acts with others of the same gender. Only those who engage in sodomy would be breaking the law. But this issue isn't about the sodomy law. It's about the churches concern that the wording of the charter could lead to the legalization of gay marriages.

I have never heard a minister going on tv or writing to the paper asking the Government to review the laws so that adultery and fornication et al are illegal or forbidden...They are currently doing this for homoseual relationships. To my knowledge, the intent isn't to make homosexual relationships a criminal offence, but to ensure that the state does not recognize homosexual marriages in the same way it does heterosexual marriage or common law marriages.


Valid...but the people in Drumblair are not telling people not to make materialism their priorities..
Some do actually do this, believe it or not.


Preachers are. Regardless How do you justify driving a BMW and a Porsche while your fellow brother or sister lives in a shack?

So I guess you shouldn't have a computer and internet access while people in some communitites can't find running water or afford legal electricity. ;)

There's nothing wrong with a person having material things. It's when we place more importance on material things than we should that a problem arises. God sees it fit to bless some of us with certain things. He expects us to be responsible, and to be compassionate to others. Provided we are in accordance with His wishes, there's no reason why we cannot enjoy whatever blessings He has allowed us to receive.


How many of these preachers adopt these street kids inside their big homes? Probably they do in the corporate area...but here...zilch. That tells me a lot..without uttering a word.

You know this for a fact? Is physically adopting a person into your home the only, or best way to help them? Many pastors, and regular people, reach out to the poor as best they can. Don't forget that people also have their own families to be responsible for.


Regarding the dress issue...leave that to Christians...dont judge non-christians...BTW If i choose to worship the Lord in jeans and T shirt..that's between me and God..Not Dr. Blair.
Worshipping the Lord in jeans and T-shirt is fine. Coming to a public place of worship dressed in short shorts, tight/short skirt, body blouse, bling, and makeup is a different matter altogether. When you are in a position to distract, or tempt others, it's a big issue.


Not wrong..the message just wont be communicated...It depends the thief might think the other is just bad-mind.
Or they might think that wise words are being passed on. Should people only give advice if they know for sure it will be heeded? How would you know whether anyone would listen or not? You never know what the impact of your words can be. Sometimes, the effect is not immediate, but maybe those words plant a seed which will bear fruit later on. As such, you can't invalidate true words spoken by a person just on the basis that they are a sinner, like the rest of us.

True..but Christians do too much talking an not much living..That's why to most people Christianity is irrelevant..They really dont care what we have to say..Talk is cheap to them.
Be that as it may, the truth still has to be told.

[coodeh]

Blackkrypotoknight...This discussion is going in circles. I appreciate the fact that you were able to have this discussion in a mature way...You did not resort to name callings or any attacks. This discussion is going in circles. It's sort of pointless to keep on writing about it Cuz We are looking at the same issue and coming up with two different conclusions or solutions. I look forward to talking to you about other issues in the future whether I agree with you or disagree.