Has the church failed? What more should they be doing?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

The sentiment that the church has failed in its responsibility to society is something that has been touched on in various discussions on this forum. In Jamaica, it is a topical issue. With the level of crime and violence plaguing the nation, many feel that the church isn't doing enough to remedy the situation. Is that the sentiment in other nations as well? How is the church perceived in other Caribbean nations? Are they felt to have failed in their responsibilities to society too? What more should the church be doing to help better the society and reduce the negative things which afflict it?

[easyskanka]

I know that this is'nt directed at me, but I am hopefully a honory caribyardie. If we have a belief and we do our best to live by that belief, this is all well and good. In our day to day attempts at walking the narrow and winding path, we should still be open (mentally) to the possibility of always learning something new. We should not be too afraid of accepting something that to all intents and purposes goes against our original belief.

Afterall Saul, later Paul, was living and doing what he knew to be right, until it was shown to him that though God never changes in his goodness, he has many facets to his unchanging diamond persona.

Where churches and individual members of the body of churces go wrong, is that they don't listen and look carefully at how phases of changes are taking place, and how they should move on and learn to keep up with those changes. If for example they learned that Christ is a seperate individual to The Almighty God, then they should not be frightened to pass this new knowledge on, instead of thinking they would be out of step with the original teaching, so therefore some people who see these things yet do not see it being propounded, gradually drift away, or conclude that the church is unable to practice humility, but would rather stubbornly stay entrenched in old style dogma.

The church has'nt completely failed, but it is ailing and failing. We have to walk the way of our heavenly Father and not try to accomodate our heavenly Father in the way we walk.

[Juliet]

How has the church failed?
What more should they be doing?

Something that I'll always remember my pastor saying in quoting someone he knew
"The only army that shoots its own wounded is the Christian army..."

[g2cris]

The church could start by uniting for the purpose of looking at the issues that affect our nation, then come to an areement on how to go about affectingchange, but the main thibg is that they be united. In the past certain churches have adopted varying principles so as to attract a particular congregation which is the reason for it's present day impotence.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

What is the purpose of the church?

What role should regular people be playing in helping the church be effective at its mission?

[easyskanka]

What is the purpose of the church?

What role should regular people be playing in helping the church be effective at its mission?

The main purpose of the church is to preach the coming KINGDOM OF GOD, and to prepare ourselves for it. In order to be a active member of the body of christ, namely the church, you can and only be a regular person, even when given added responsibility as a pastor etc.

What people should do above all else, is to donate their time and money to help their immediate community in whatever constructive way they can, especially the impressionable youths. It would not be easy, but with strong conviction and determination, I'm sure headway in a forward direction could be made.

[Gillion]

Without reading the question, or the posts by others, and i did this deliberately, I will say that the church has not failed.

If it did, all of us would be out there in the streets or dead.

The thing that has truly failed, is us.

We have failed ourselves.

We have lost sight of the very thing that is most important (even without religion and the church ) and that is FAMILY.

The one thing that keeps a society whole, refreshing and strong is family.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Without reading the question, or the posts by others, and i did this deliberately, I will say that the church has not failed.

If it did, all of us would be out there in the streets or dead.

The thing that has truly failed, is us.

We have failed ourselves.

We have lost sight of the very thing that is most important (even without religion and the church ) and that is FAMILY.

The one thing that keeps a society whole, refreshing and strong is family.

Remarkable ... :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

[Bahama Mama]

Without reading the question, or the posts by others, and i did this deliberately, I will say that the church has not failed.

If it did, all of us would be out there in the streets or dead.



Really? Why is that?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

The main purpose of the church is to preach the coming KINGDOM OF GOD, and to prepare ourselves for it.

Would it be fair to say that the church is currently doing what you mentioned above?


What people should do above all else, is to donate their time and money to help their immediate community in whatever constructive way they can, especially the impressionable youths. It would not be easy, but with strong conviction and determination, I'm sure headway in a forward direction could be made.

Would it be fair to say that if people were listening and putting into practice the teachings of the church, that such outreach and philanthropy would come about much easier and more widespread?

[Gillion]

Really? Why is that?

Take a stab at it and i'll tell you if your close.

[Bahama Mama]

Take a stab at it and i'll tell you if your close.


The only thing that I gathered form your previous statement, is that the church in its capacity is the most effective social pacifier to extreme violence among citizens in a society. As such the church in some way has managed to transform the hardened criminal to a peace loving individual? As such it saved alot of us from becoming victims of crime.

[Gillion]

The only thing that I gathered form your previous statement, is that the church in its capacity is the most effective social pacifier to extreme violence among citizens in a society. As such the church in some way has managed to transform the hardened criminal to a peace loving individual? As such it saved alot of us from becoming victims of crime.

Close but, not exactly.

The church has prevented alot of people from walking the path of darkness and allowed them to see that there is an alternative way of living that acutally works if you let it.


That you can acheive your goals in life without becomming a virtual Genghis Kahn


As such these people, who would have been lost sheep without the church, are serving a higher ideal rather than killing or stealing form their neighbours despite the fact that said people may be in dire economic straits.

In other aspects, the church has regulated birth rates and the transmission of sexually transmited infections.

In other aspects the church has provided education to many poor individuals during the early days after slavery my grandparents

[easyskanka]

Would it be fair to say that the church is currently doing what you mentioned above?



Would it be fair to say that if people were listening and putting into practice the teachings of the church, that such outreach and philanthropy would come about much easier and more widespread?

I don't mean just from the pulpit BCK. If you only invite people to the church building where the faithful are gathered, you may never see those folk at all. Better me thinks to take the word to the people whenever possible.

Well, what does your church do on a practical level for your community. Please list half a dozen in order to see if people are putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak.

The things spoken above are without ill-will:)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I don't mean just from the pulpit BCK. If you only invite people to the church building where the faithful are gathered, you may never see those folk at all. Better me thinks to take the word to the people whenever possible.

But isn't the church doing this currently? Doesn't the church do community outreach (feeding programmes, health and wellness seminars, poor outreach, shut in visits, hospital and prison ministry, counselling), radio, TV, Internet, music, and literature ministry? What of the schools built and run by the church? What of the hospitals built and run by the church? What of the members who in their daily lives, do their part to spread the gospel and set a good example?



Well, what does your church do on a practical level for your community. Please list half a dozen in order to see if people are putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak.

The things spoken above are without ill-will:)

See what I posted just above this quote.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Come to think of it, what is wrong with inviting people to attend formal church? Doing so serves an important function. There is much benefit in fellowship with fellow believers. Church is where people get emotional and spiritual support in their efforts to live the Christian life. It is a good thing. Why are so many people so quick to brush this aside, and speak as there is something wrong with that practice? It is almost as if some people want to completely absolve themselves of any responsibility to take action themselves and make a commitment. It seems to be they want the church to be the one to acting.

Bear in mind that it is people who are the church, and one cannot experience the full benefit of what the church has to offer without actually making that commitment to live the Christian life, as the church teaches.

[easyskanka]

I did'nt say they should not attend the place of worship BCK. Everything has it's place and in it's correct context. So christians actually go out into the ghetto's and other places to preach the good news of the Kingdom, while having practical functions in place? Excellent! But the list you have made is a very important role of what should take place. If this really is the case, then it beggars belief as to how much worse the crime rate would be without the church doing it's constructive bit.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I did'nt say they should not attend the place of worship BCK. Everything has it's place and in it's correct context.

Wasn't speaking specifically about you ES, but I hear that sentiment expressed all the time. People dismiss church services as unimportant, irrelevant, or even sinister, and hold the view that meeting for worship does not constitute any kind of positive contribution to society. They want to see the church handing out more stuff before they feel the church is doing anything good.


So christians actually go out into the ghetto's and other places to preach the good news of the Kingdom, while having practical functions in place? Excellent! But the list you have made is a very important role of what should take place. If this really is the case, then it beggars belief as to how much worse the crime rate would be without the church doing it's constructive bit.

Well this is what I'm getting at ES. Many who criticize the church as being inactive, are just ignorant of what the church is actually doing. That in and of itself is quite telling. The church, as per Christian belief, doesn't go around advertising all its good deeds to get ratings as do the govt. or private sector companies. The church practices humility, and views such acts of kindness as part of their duty. So unless you are actively involved in such work with the church, attending church to give moral and other support (tithes and offerings) benefitting from such activities, or witnessing them first hand, then you will not hear about many of the things the church does. Many of the churches critics, do not go to church, or are actively involved in church activities, so how can they really know what the church is really about?

Unfortunately, many people today have this "If I didn't hear/see it in the news, then it didn't happen" menatility. That's just ignorance.

[Xenocrates]

The sentiment that the church has failed in its responsibility to society is something that has been touched on in various discussions on this forum.

- Really? Point me to those threads please. :hyper:


With the level of crime and violence plaguing the nation, many feel that the church isn't doing enough to remedy the situation.

- You should ask them, what are THEY doing to remedy the situation. I've discovered that 99% of the people who mouth off this kind of garbage are trying to do nothing more than find any reason they can use to discredit the church. None of these people go to church. So It's all hogwash. The next time someone mouths off about the church failing, tell them that their politics has failed as well - especially since in many cases, their politics is a direct cause for the crime and violence. Thus, they shouldn't throw stones when they live in a glass house.


Is that the sentiment in other nations as well?

- Only from people who want to find a reason to make the church seem unnecessary. But the church has had a profound impact on some nations such as Denmark and Australia, where the crime rate is almost non existent (in the case of Denmark) or where the nation has strong religious-political bonds (in the case of Australia). Jamaicans are just stubborn. Having gotten away with as much evil as they have (with the aid of corrupt politicians, might I add), they've stopped listening to the still small voice.


What more should the church be doing to help better the society and reduce the negative things which afflict it?

- Nothing more. If the church did anything more, it would be breaking its own back from bending over backwards for so long. In fact, I may only go as far as to suggest national days of prayer and fasting (but this has already started).

However, let every god fearing man and woman know this:

The current upheaval of crime and violence is only a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and is not indicative of the church's failure. The church is not failing. The times are just becoming more wicked and vile - just as the Bible predicted in Matthew 24:6 -


6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

11 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


- 'Nuff sed.

[nester-san]

However, let every god fearing man and woman know this:

The current upheaval of crime and violence is only a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and is not indicative of the church's failure. The church is not failing. The times are just becoming more wicked and vile - just as the Bible predicted in Matthew 24:6 -



- 'Nuff sed.

This same argument will be used by Xeno the Eighty-Eighth in 4500 AD.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

This same argument will be used by Xeno the Eighty-Eighth in 4500 AD.

Oh yeah? Prove it! :cool:

[nester-san]

I can't dude, the point I am making is a lot of peoples percieved frustration with the church is that it seems to have taken a step backward, ie in middle ages it was church this, mighty church that etc. Now church seems a footnote more than anything else.

Various churches (not nesc. Catholic) have been preaching end of days for thousands of years (Yes, I am talking to you JW's), to no avail. Same message no results, when I say that I do not mean community outreach etc, I mean the opening of heavens, trumpets from on high. You tend to hear more scandals about the church than good works.

Do you guys ever notice that people almost expect church people to be as currupt and criminal and amoral as politicians, a good pastor, churchgoer (as in a one day christian) is seen as the exception and not the rule ?

Back in the day, churchgoers were beyond reproach, now you hear "Yow, a christian enuh, who wicked and lie like dem" etc.
Church girls are considered easy lays etc, pastors are expected to be carnally abusing their flocks etc. why ?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

- Really? Point me to those threads please. :hyper:
Read here. (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3408)

I can't remember/find others, but it's a sentiment I hear all the time these days. Actually, the other day I was going to the supermarket, when a young lady came up doing a vox pop and asking me what more I thought the church should be doing to stop crime and help the society. I told her she's asking the wrong question. She should be asking why aren't more people listening to the church and living according to God's word as the church teaches.

[Xenocrates]

I can't dude, the point I am making is a lot of peoples percieved frustration with the church is that it seems to have taken a step backward, ie in middle ages it was church this, mighty church that etc. Now church seems a footnote more than anything else.

- Remember that thread I started about the Purpose of Religion (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3536)? I can tell you haven't realised what the real point of that thread was. As technological advancements become more ubiquitous, people are relying less and less on faith and more and more on science. This is not to say that the church has lost its foothold on civilization. The noise of industrialism has just grown louder. Even modern Christians are less given to mysticism and more to science to some degree.

Furthermore, what you fail to realise is that back in those days, governments were Theocratic, meaning that the Church and state were one. Today's governments have broken away from that system - for very good reasons.


Various churches (not nesc. Catholic) have been preaching end of days for thousands of years (Yes, I am talking to you JW's), to no avail. Same message no results, when I say that I do not mean community outreach etc, I mean the opening of heavens, trumpets from on high.

- The End of Days, as recorded by Orthodox Jews is a period of roughly 2000 years from the end of christ's presence on earth. We are pretty close to the end of that 2000 year period - according to the Jewish calendar.


You tend to hear more scandals about the church than good works.

- Evil men have itching ears for evil things. All men are evil by default. The media realises this, and thus will not broadcast the thousands of positive events (which monstrously outweigh the negative ones) in the media. You will never see a headline in the Star that reads:

PASTOR CONVERTS 200 PRISONERS

or

GUNMEN CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY

or

CHURCH PROVIDES AID TO INNERCITY COMMUNITIES

You know why? Because people are EVIL, and headlines about positive events won't sell papers or increase tv ratings. Evil minds enjoy filth more than they enjoy good things. The media is just capitalizing on this to make money. That's why the only headlines you will see in the papers are:

PASTOR BREEDS CHURCH SISTERS

and

CHURCH LINKED TO GUNMEN

and

PASTOR OWNS 9mm FIREARM

- because it's sensational, and makes everyone who backslid (or want a good reason to stay away from church) to feel better about themselves. So pathetic :eusa_naug


Do you guys ever notice that people almost expect church people to be as currupt and criminal and amoral as politicians, a good pastor, churchgoer (as in a one day christian) is seen as the exception and not the rule ?

- See the above point.


Back in the day, churchgoers were beyond reproach...

- Rubbish. The scribes and Pharisees were just as scandalous as any wayward christian today. In fact, back in the Corinthian church, they had "Holy Prostitutes". It's far better now than it was then. Nobody wants to hear about good christians. They want to hear about how christians foul up. It's all about having somebody to ridicule, and self-justification for remaining in one's filthy state of being.


Church girls are considered easy lays etc, pastors are expected to be carnally abusing their flocks etc. why ?

- Media cultivated image. If you haven't been to church for a long time, the only thing you will know about church is the evil that the media selectively highlights.

Do yourself a favour, start going to church and notice the difference, instead of speculating off the top of your head. ;)

[nester-san]

Do yourself a favour, start going to church and notice the difference, instead of speculating off the top of your head. ;)

Until I was old enough to decide for my self, church was an every week affair. Roman Catholic too :icon_redf
When I said back in the day, I meant during the time of my granny, and her church going sistren, the ma'as joes and miss jens. ie. when I was younger a church goer was considered basically a good person, who could usually be found, making the peace, or not involved in mix-up.

The most coniving, lying, wicked person I have come across in a very long time at a customers office was according to herself, a righteous christian.
Mash up the $200,000 Printer and trying to say is my bredren, who fortunately was with me at the time, lying to his face and her managers face about it, until I made a big stink.

I said under my breath "#$%@$%@ lyin' #$%@#$%", not "lyin christian #@%#$%@"

Her fellow employees, excused her behaviour by saying "Is a christian, who tell lie and wicked more than them."

Not that she was simply a lying, evil conniving *****, they associated her evilness as a symptom of her religion.

That is a statement I have heard over and over from all walks of life, for a long time.

I wish I had made up those classic lines, but I care not enough about religion on a whole to make up a line like that. You need to get from between the pages of your good book and see what people really think about christians.

Conversely, one of the nicest, least judgemental, decent people I know is also a christian, and we hang out and chat and get along smashingly, and as I mentioned somewhere else, I severely curb my more "demonic" tendencies to make her more comfortable. She is one of the few people, that I genuinely wish that heaven existed in the traditional christian sense for her to go when she dies.

I was not making an attack against the church, I was simply asking a question, and as usual instead of answering civily when think your bible corn get mash, you are starting to display typical unchristian signs of hostility...:eusa_naug LOL

There was no speculation in any statements I made, just thoughts I have heard from the majority of people I have heard while on the bus, working in misc. companies, and yes, even in church, or at weddings.

When you have Jesus as the person to be emulated, christians must realise that any failings, like that %@#$%, or another "christian" at yet another company, who pirates movies and music, and short changes bills, tells blatant lies for financial gains etc, are not going to be seen by others as their own personal failings. They read the bible LOUD, and listen Gospel LOUDER, and love say who and who going to hell to burn, so people then associate the behavior with the religion.

So far dude, the perception is that the nutcases are runnning the asylum...

Time for a change: flying spagetthi monster (http://www.venganza.org/)...


- The End of Days, as recorded by Orthodox Jews is a period of roughly 2000 years from the end of christ's presence on earth. We are pretty close to the end of that 2000 year period - according to the Jewish calendar.

Well don't forget: The Mayan Calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar) : 13 October, 4772, with a significant event happening on Dec 12, 2012 ;-)

[easyskanka]

As Xeno has already said: It's all so easy to always focus on the negative as an excuse for us to carry on with bad behavior. Such is OUR NATURE by default. If a pretty young woman bends down with a short skirt on,thereby exposing her undercarriage, we are all inclined to stare at the sight.It is human nature, the difference with those who attempt to follow the right way, is that we will attempt not to stare, according to our consciece of what is right or wrong to indulge in. Those who do not listen to their conscience or who do not care what the creator might think, will go as far as to scoff at a man who might look away from what would normally be considered a sight worth viewing. Such is our natural and sinful disposition... and we have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory...So try not to pick on people's short comings...but concentrate on doing what you know to be right in God's sight.

It is wishful thinking to think that we will get things right on our own, thereby continuing on indefinately as things are. (See Bernie's signature) Satan's truth is no truth, he is called the father of the lie. We either follow the true God's word or we follow the originator of the lie. This is what it all comes down to.

Jesus had time for those in need, not for those who have a need for futile endeavours that lead round and round without going anywhere.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Nester-san, I have somes questions:

Do the people you speak of who have these negative opinions of Christians know what the true Christian ideal is supposed to be?

Do they make a distinction between those persons who claim to follow the true Christian principles and don't, as opposed to those who actually do? Do they realise that Christians are regular people, just like them, who face temptation, have difficulties and imperfections, and are at varying stages of spiritual development - just like them?

If a person claims to follow a principle, but clearly falls short, does that make the principle bad, or does that make the person a bad practicioner of the principle?

Does one person's (or many persons) misbehaviour justify others neglect of what is right?

[nester-san]

Nester-san, I have somes questions:

Do the people you speak of who have these negative opinions of Christians know what the true Christian ideal is supposed to be?

I dunno, to honest. I assume they go off the "But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you...." thing.


Do they make a distinction between those persons who claim to follow the true Christian principles and don't, as opposed to those who actually do? Do they realise that Christians are regular people, just like them, who face temptation, have difficulties and imperfections, and are at varying stages of spiritual development - just like them?

Ahh, you see, that is a big part of the problem, If you trumpet night and day that you are a killer of lions, then at the end of the day you kill kittens, you kinda lose the respect of the village.

I, for example, get sent the usual spirtual religious emails from a "christian" employee of a customer of mine, she claims I need Jesus, fair enough. Her actions have resulted in me sending the ONLY letter of complaint I have ever written to her managers about her behaviour on a project. If she was following even basic human moral code, she would have carried herself differently. I think she is a ^#$^$^#, not because she is a "christian", but being a christian, I expect better.
I do not expect anyone to walk on water or feed the multitude, but you must at least appear to be a better person than the non believing/practicing masses!

BCK, the non followers bellow out their christianity and point out the faults of non christians more than true practicioners.

My friend, and this other guy I know who is a christian behave far differently than the people I know who proclaim their chrsitianty from the church steeple. They show their faith by how they lead their lives, not by condemning others then behaving worse.


If a person claims to follow a principle, but clearly falls short, does that make the principle bad, or does that make the person a bad practicioner of the principle?
No, I am a big fan of Jesus' teachings as a way to live, a bit to passive for me, but I agree with the spirit of what he said completely. But even wicked old me realises that for example if I were to become a true christian, there is certain behaviour that cannot be the norm anymore. It would be gross wickedness to still:
Lie for personal gain on a regular basis (I do not do that anyway)
Play ultra-violent video games (promoting violence as a way of solving problems)
Hedonist Lifestyle
Drugs
ADSL Theatre
etc..



Does one person's (or many persons) misbehaviour justify others neglect of what is right?

Absolutely not, but I simply pointed out that I have found most non church goers assume the worst of christians sight unseen.

I went house hunting with a friend, we went to a house where half the house was being rented by a family (Father,Mother,Daughter). The father was a pastor/preacher etc, BCK not even starving dog look at meat with the look he was giving my friend. The daughter came right up to me and was chatting me up like she thirsty too, while giving my GF the "come hither" eyes also. I am pretty sure she would have been up for anything. The wife looked daggers at my friend, sent her daughter in the house and said she would be in touch, needless, my friend did not get the place. That is not the behaviour I expect from a christian, simply because I know two or three that actually behave like christians, but people seem to be expecting the worst and lumping good with the bad.

Remember as part of a group = christians, you are all lumped together, good apples, rotten apples, turn apples, so long as you in one barrel together, you are ALL seen as apples.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Remember as part of a group = christians, you are all lumped together, good apples, rotten apples, turn apples, so long as you in one barrel together, you are ALL seen as apples.

Yeah, this is how it appears to be. Generalization seems to be at the core of many things. At the end of it all though, people are individuals and will be assessed on their own merit - not on that of the group. It is unfair to assume that because some people who claim Christianity, misrepresent it, that all who claim Christianity will do the same.

But getting back on topic, why do people not get the point that society would be better off if everybody followed the Christian principles, instead of complaining about what more the church organization should be doing for society? Why not focus on what each of us needs to be doing?

[nester-san]

Gone back to lurking, not qualified to answer.....
except to say, that for most religions the fundamentalist extremists, who want think that restricting freedoms as way of improving society always seem to be the ones who get the most press time and positions of power, this turns off people like me, who love personal freedom.(Which is not the same as anarchy)
Although, pretend for a sec we are not a christian nation, but have no religious leanings at all, why would christianity, as opposed to Rastafarianism, Judiasm etc, be the most appropriate ?
I am sure there are other faiths which hold the principles of love and forgiviness..? Yes/no?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Gone back to lurking, not qualified to answer.....
except to say, that for most religions the fundamentalist extremists, who want think that restricting freedoms as way of improving society always seem to be the ones who get the most press time and positions of power, this turns off people like me, who love personal freedom.(Which is not the same as anarchy)
Although, pretend for a sec we are not a christian nation, but have no religious leanings at all, why would christianity, as opposed to Rastafarianism, Judiasm etc, be the most appropriate ?
I am sure there are other faiths which hold the principles of love and forgiviness..? Yes/no?

Come to think of it, has anyone heard complaints about other religious organizations not doing enough for society? :eusa_thin

Every religious organization (whatever the faith) has as its prime directive, to teach people about some way or principles. Now after they teach, it's up to the individual to accept it and live according to it. If people chose not to do so, how can the entity presenting these principles be blamed or accused of not doing enough? Why do people chose to blame the church when people chose to excercise their freedom to do as they please and ignore what the church has to say?

People complain when the church speaks out on something, or attempts to speak to people about their lifestyle and how they can make it better. People complain that the church doesn't speak out enough. People claim that the church needs to be more active. People complain that the church needs to keep out of things and be less active. I think that at the root of it all, some people are just intent on not taking responsibility for their own actions, and want to malign the church.

[Xenocrates]

I was not making an attack against the church, I was simply asking a question, and as usual instead of answering civily when think your bible corn get mash, you are starting to display typical unchristian signs of hostility...:eusa_naug LOL

- There was nothing hostile in that post. You shouldn't let bold capitalized text impair your perception. :p

The long and short of it Nester-san, is that this situation is a repeat of the fox and sour grapes scenario. People who see christians fail, feel good in seeing them fail, because it means "I have company". The number 1 excuse is that "that's not a lifestyle that I can sustain". But what most people fail to understand Nester, is this:

The only fundamental difference between christians and sinners (aside from their fate after death), is that christians have a conscience about their actions. Sinners do not.

Otherwise, Christians are just like sinners. Some people would say that Christians are "sinners saved by grace". Christians are effectively sinners who want a better way of life. They want to change their dirty habits - and in due time, with persistence, they will! This is the whole point of Christ's death dude. Christ didn't die to make people perfect. Christ didn't come to earth to call only the perfect to follow him. Christ died so that people with imperfections have an easily accessible source for redemption. In fact, in his death, Christ acknowledged that men are imperfect. It is a broken spirit and a contrite heart that God acknowledges, not perfection in your walk. So all those christians out there who have self-righteous attitudes towards others aren't doing jack. It's whether or not you acknowledge your sinful ways.

So to repeat for emphasis:

Christians acknowledge their sinful ways and seek redemption (has conscience)


Sinners embrace their sinful ways, and seek no redemption (no conscience)


So at the end of the day, both sinners and christians have sinful ways. One just decided to do something about it. If perfection were a requirement for entering heaven, not a single soul would make it in.

Therefore brejin, if you see a christian out there who messes up, instead of lumping them in the same barrel with the other apples, try to do better yourself! If you can't, then there's no point in pointing fingers, because it only makes you a hypocrite (pot a cuss kettle). Since you know better, do better. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder. U zimi?

[nester-san]

But what makes you a christian as opposed to someone who claims to be one ?

I don't lump anyone, I just think you should at least seem to be doing a bit better than your fellow heathen

[BlackCryptoKnight]

But what makes you a christian as opposed to someone who claims to be one ?
Anyone who accepts Christ and seeks to live according to His example and teachings, is a Christian.



I don't lump anyone, I just think you should at least seem to be doing a bit better than your fellow heathen
Yet those who "shun even the very appearance of sin" as Christians should, are ridiculed, ostracised, demonized, and accused of being "self-righteous". :rolleyes:

You know though, being a Christian doesn't mean that you automatically stop facing the same kinds of temptations or difficult choices and situations that non-Christians have to face. It will actually increase and amplify the challenges. Devil naw work hard for those he already comfortably has, but he works his backside off to get those who would turn away from him.

[nester-san]

The long and short of it Nester-san, is that this situation is a repeat of the fox and sour grapes scenario. People who see christians fail, feel good in seeing them fail, because it means "I have company". The number 1 excuse is that "that's not a lifestyle that I can sustain".

what about me, I do not follow your lifestyle because I do not believe in the accuracy of the bible, I believe in some of it's messages, but the heaven/hell mythos is just not really believable.

psst... People who do not know my personal life (hedonist), but only interact with me on a social/work level assume that I am a christian!



The only fundamental difference between christians and sinners (aside from their fate after death), is that christians have a conscience about their actions. Sinners do not.

But that is my point, most people I know assume people's negative behavior stem from christianity!

"My sins will be forgiven in the next world, so I can behave like a @#%^@#, so long as I "repent" at the end of the day."

Most "christians" I am sure, do not think that how they live their lives matter, so long as when the end comes they are sorry.

That's a cop out of the highest order!


Christians are effectively sinners who want a better way of life. They want to change their dirty habits - and in due time, with persistence, they will! This is the whole point of Christ's death dude. Christ didn't die to make people perfect. It is a broken spirit and a contrite heart that God acknowledges, not perfection in your walk.

So why do I, who is certainly not a christian, considered one by people who meet me?

Short of my sex life, and recreational swearing and drug use (which I restrict to approving circles only), I simply try to treat people the way I want to be treated. ie. I am owed some cash by couple people, I r broke, and because I know if they had it they would pay me, I am not gonna be harrasing them and making their harder than my life harder, because I would like a little leeway when I owe people too...simple human kindness and thought, no religious motivation at all, which is why I don't think people need religion to do better, they just should!!


[So at the end of the day, both sinners and christians have sinful ways. One just decided to do something about it. If perfection were a requirement for entering heaven, not a single soul would make it in.

I do not expect perfection, not even from the creator!


Therefore brejin, if you see a christian out there who messes up, instead of lumping them in the same barrel with the other apples, try to do better yourself! If you can't, then there's no point in pointing fingers, because it only makes you a hypocrite (pot a cuss kettle). Since you know better, do better. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder. U zimi?

Well, I know that part, it annoys me when people claim christianity but behave worse than the average joe. A former friend of mine (15 years), is now a christian, and he disavowed me and the heathens ( we used to run boat, play ball, share work, take bus, etc as a group)to embrace God. He is merrily cheating on his wife, safe in the kowledge (as far as he thinks), that one "hail mary" later he is cool with God again.

Dat no right

[nester-san]

Anyone who accepts Christ and seeks to live according to His example and teachings, is a Christian.

Ok, that gets rid of 80% of the church population...:icon_redf



Yet those who "shun even the very appearance of sin" as Christians should, are ridiculed, ostracised, demonized, and accused of being "self-righteous". :rolleyes:

The people I spoke about are the very opposite of those things, I will and have discussed religion with them, and don't come away feeling like they are trying to brainwash me. The girl I spoke of said she wears modest clothes, not only out of modesty, but in order to lessen the temptation of her church family and the non-believers!

I have never heard anyone who claimed to be a christian saying anything as humanistic as that, and she went up ten thousand fold in my estimation.
That is what I meant by lead by example, and not trumpet, me good, u bad all over the place.
That I respect completely.[/QUOTE]

[BlackCryptoKnight]

But that is my point, most people I know assume people's negative behavior stem from christianity!

"My sins will be forgiven in the next world, so I can behave like a @#%^@#, so long as I "repent" at the end of the day."

Most "christians" I am sure, do not think that how they live their lives matter, so long as when the end comes they are sorry.

That's a cop out of the highest order!

How do you know that "most" Christians fall into this category? I will agree that many professed Christians do, but this is not what God's word says. It very well does matter how you live your life today. Many Christians know that.


Ok, that gets rid of 80% of the church population

How do you know it's 80% instead of 30%? Do you have any empirical evidence to back up that assertion? :icon_mrgr

Nester-san, it's no mystery that there are people in the church who are not perfect, and worse yet, are in reality "false Christians" ie. they pretend to be righteous and Christlike, but in reality, they are far from it. Sure there are hypocrites in the church. But guess what? Those kind of people are all over society. Many of them are worshipped by "die hearted" supporters who vote them into power. Many of them work with you, are related to you, and might even live with you. All of this does not negate the validity of the Christian message and God's word. It just means that there are people who are not following it.

As such, when people complain about the church not doing enough, or the church being bad or whatnot, while they make no effort to do better themselves, that, in and of itself, is the essence of hypocricy. If you know how people are supposed to behave, and you chose not to do so, yet the institution which tries to teach people that way, is attacked by you (not you personally NS, just general "you"), then there's something wrong with that picture. The church is made up of many individuals. Some on track, some off track. But regardless, the purpose of the institution is clear, and the teachings are there for everyone to objectively see and measure themselves by.

By the way, not all churches are like the RC church. Don't use them as the general rule for all churches. Part of the problem is the reality that not all church entities are the same, believe the same, or conduct themselves the same - hence the confused perception from those outside the church.

[nester-san]

Fair enough, but at the same time, if you rant on and an about you being a christian, even if you do not follow the teachings of your church in your heart, the people who interact with you are going to assume that you represent the typical behavior of your faith.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Fair enough, but at the same time, if you rant on and an about you being a christian, even if you do not follow the teachings of your church in your heart, the people who interact with you are going to assume that you represent the typical behavior of your faith.

And that would be a flawed assumption.

If there are laws of the land, and a citizen claims to be law abiding, yet break the law, it is faulty logic to assume that a typical law abiding citizen is a law breaker, or that the law allows for law breaking.

If people would be fair, they'd actually look at what Christian principles really are, then assess whether the behaviour of individuals is consistent with those principles, instead of torching the principles on the basis of some individuals transgressions.

[nester-san]

Nester-san, it's no mystery that there are people in the church who are not perfect, and worse yet, are in reality "false Christians" ie. they pretend to be righteous and Christlike, but in reality, they are far from it. Sure there are hypocrites in the church. But guess what? Those kind of people are all over society.

Yeah, but politicians are usually expected to be currupt, lawyers are expected to be low-life scum of the earth blackguards, accountants are thought to hold money tighter than hulk.

Religious people should not not have the negative connotations they have in todays society.

Case in point, most rasta's are seen to be far more righteous than the average christian.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Yeah, but politicians are usually expected to be currupt, lawyers are expected to be low-life scum of the earth blackguards, accountants are thought to hold money tighter than hulk.

Religious people should not not have the negative connotations they have in todays society.

Case in point, most rasta's are seen to be far more righteous than the average christian.

Cop out dude. No group of people should be associated with negative things. That's part of the problem. Society excuses some people, even celebrates their sin, yet Christians are persecuted when they are righteous, and persecuted when they sin. Eediat ting dat! Hypocrisy!

[nester-san]

LOL LOL true ting.......

[Gillion]

Cop out dude. No group of people should be associated with negative things. That's part of the problem. Society excuses some people, even celebrates their sin, yet Christians are persecuted when they are righteous, and persecuted when they sin. Eediat ting dat! Hypocrisy!

Well because Christians have a tendency to rebuke this and rebuke that and bun out this and bun out that, and then you hear Sister Cathy big dawta pregnant for Pastor James who married 41 years to Sister Gertrude.

At which point and time people say bollocks !

If one of you can slide then that means the whole lot is no good.

Why ?

People do not excuse christians' for being human and sometimes the church does promote tha t image.

So when you think about it it makes sense... the failure of one is the failure of all.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Well because Christians have a tendency to rebuke this and rebuke that and bun out this and bun out that, and then you hear Sister Cathy big dawta pregnant for Pastor James who married 41 years to Sister Gertrude.

At which point and time people say bollocks !

If one of you can slide then that means the whole lot is no good.

Why ?

People do not excuse christians' for being human and sometimes the church does promote tha t image.

So when you think about it it makes sense... the failure of one is the failure of all.

No boss. That spells no sense. Nobody has the right to write off another person as "no good". Only the Creator is qualified to do that. So even if some church members behave badly, their behaviour really is no objective indicator of the behaviour of the entire church population. People are individuals. It's funny how non-Christians bawl about judgementalism and stereotyping, yet carry out the same thing on church people.

All of us are sinners.

[nester-san]

It's funny how non-Christians bawl about judgementalism and stereotyping, yet carry out the same thing on church people.

All of us are sinners.

But not all of us are christians !! We don't know better remember :D

When police tief, it look bad on police, when christian backslide, it looks bad on christians.

[Xenocrates]

Y'know what's funny Nester? You know when a christian has faltered. How do you know? Because there is some standard of righteousness that you are aware of that has to be held up by anyone following those teachings. It simply means that, christian or no, you KNOW what is righteous from what isn't. THEREFORE...

If you can recognize the evil for what it is, it simply means that you already have the capacity to accomplish the good for what it is. You seem to be a very genuine person (as far as I can tell), and outside of your personal life preferences (which are immaterial to this discussion btw), I think you have the capacity to do better. If you didn't, you wouldn't know when a christian falters. ;)

You already have the mentality. You already have the conscience. You just choose it ignore it. What's stopping you from doing better? As far as I can tell, you seem genuine enough to make a better christian than the poor imitations with which you seem to be surrounded by! Why not? What do you have to loose? :D

[nester-san]

Y'know what's funny Nester? You know when a christian has faltered. How do you know? Because there is some standard of righteousness that you are aware of that has to be held up by anyone following those teachings. It simply means that, christian or no, you KNOW what is righteous from what isn't. THEREFORE...

If you can recognize the evil for what it is, it simply means that you already have the capacity to accomplish the good for what it is. You seem to be a very genuine person (as far as I can tell), and outside of your personal life preferences (which are immaterial to this discussion btw), I think you have the capacity to do better. If you didn't, you wouldn't know when a christian falters. ;)

You already have the mentality. You already have the conscience. You just choose it ignore it. What's stopping you from doing better? As far as I can tell, you seem genuine enough to make a better christian than the poor imitations with which you seem to be surrounded by! Why not? What do you have to loose? :D

What I think of religion summed up nicely (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3740)

Why do you need religion to make you do the right thing, look at a situation or an action before you do it, consider how best what you say or do next will help everyone concerned and do that. Simple!

Don't believe in books about religion! They require too much faith, and I notice that when faith comes into picture, the still small voice we all have sometimes gets ignored by things that are now believed.
As much as I believe in repentance and such for crimes etc, I do not want any part of a system which is gonna have Uncle Tony, "the New York Butcher" believe that lopping off body parts for the mob for 40 years is sinfull, but when he goes to mass, or is himself butchered he is gonna go to heaven, if he really is sorry. Too easy...

btw, I do not believe all sin is sin ie. all having equal weight, some crimes you r skin must burn or something. (I have read almost every punisher comic, pretty much from issue 1 till now, wonder why :eusa_whis ?)

I do not claim to be judge, jury or executioner, but I like the idea of balance, where the wrongs you do in this life, earn you some form of reproach and not a last minute squeeze into salvation.


You just choose it ignore it

What am I ignoring exactly ?

[Xenocrates]

All sin is sin. Failure to repent of any of them will warrant the same result. Ofcourse, where certain sins have greater gravity, human laws take care of that.


What am I ignoring exactly ?

- The capacity to change. I don't think you're being held back because you don't believe in heaven or hell - that seems like a convenient excuse, a cover story for your own unwillingness. I genuinely think it's because you don't want to change your current lifestyle. In any event, you have to be convicted of that on your own. Nobody else but you can make that recognition. That's the beauty about how this works. Nobody can make you do what you don't want to. ;)

I sense that a seed has been planted from your youth. You say you subscribe to some the lifestyle teachings, just not the heaven/hell part. Well that's a fair start. It's only a matter of time before it germinates into something long lasting. It's amazing how life incidents can change our minds. Anything is possible. In any event, I believe that as you get older and wiser, wisdom will prevail. ;)

But alas, we've drifted off topic again. Thus, I must desist...http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/riiight.gif

[nester-san]

- The capacity to change. I don't think you're being held back because you don't believe in heaven or hell - that seems like a convenient excuse, a cover story for your own unwillingness. I genuinely think it's because you don't want to change your current lifestyle.

What exactly is wrong with my current lifestyle, and just what am I supposed to change to ?

I like my personal freedom, and think everyone should have that freedom too, so long as you behave in a humanistic manner towards your fellow man.

[Xenocrates]

What exactly is wrong with my current lifestyle, and just what am I supposed to change to ?

- Your personal lifestyle is your business and your business alone. Like I said earlier, it is immaterial to this discussion. I believe every man should be convicted in their own minds of their own deeds - whatever those deeds are. It is not for me (or anyone else) to decide what you do is right or wrong. I can't point any fingers at anything you do. That's your job. That's between you and God. Xeno has no quarry in that.

All I'm saying is, a seed has obviously been planted. I think you should give it a chance to germinate, since you already have other christian-like propensities already. I mean, why stop there? You'll never grow unless you try to do something that you haven't already mastered. Think about it. ;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

As much as I believe in repentance and such for crimes etc, I do not want any part of a system which is gonna have Uncle Tony, "the New York Butcher" believe that lopping off body parts for the mob for 40 years is sinfull, but when he goes to mass, or is himself butchered he is gonna go to heaven, if he really is sorry. Too easy...

Breddrin' it nuh werk like dat! You're doing it again. If Uncle Tony, "the New York Butcher" believes that, then he is in for a rude awakening when judgement is upon him. If you decide to shun a system because of someone elses misinterpretation, perversion, and faulty practice of it, then you are making a decision based on flawed logic.



I do not claim to be judge, jury or executioner, but I like the idea of balance, where the wrongs you do in this life, earn you some form of reproach and not a last minute squeeze into salvation.


If all are offered forgiveness for your sins, salvation and eternal life, freely, and all you need to do is accept it, and turn away from sin, why would that be imbalanced? Why would that be unfair? To me, that is the most fair solution possible. Everybody has messed up. Everybody gets a chance to be redeemed. We can't ever earn it, so it is given to us freely, provided we turn away from our messed up ways. There's no last minute squeeze there, because God knows our hearts, and knows whether we are genuine or trying to screechy cross the border. No screechy ting gonna work. :eusa_naug

NS, going to a Jesuit school, and RC church has influenced much of your perspective on Christianity. Not bashining RC people, but there are other perspectives which may shed different light on what you perceive as true Christianity.

So nester-san, to steer this thing back on topic, what should the church be doing to better things?

[nester-san]

As I said before, I dunno, i don't know what the church isn't doing !!!