If...

[AngelsKiss]

Someone put a gun to your face and asked you if you believed in God and they told you if you said yes you would die. What would you do?

Would you say yes knowing you could die or would you say no?

Bare in mind that if your faith is strong and it's God's desire for you to live you could very well live. Also even if you did say no, God would forgive you later (at least I think He would) if you asked for forgiveness. The problem though is that you would probably feel guilty for a long time to come. So which is it? Deny God and live or acknowledge Him and possibly die?

[Jae]

He might shoot me if I say no anyway, how do I know if he's telling the truth? If he's sick enough to do that I'm not too sure of anything he might or might not do. Better say yes and hope I get to heaven, or don't get shot, by some divine intervention.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Someone put a gun to your face and asked you if you believed in God and they told you if you said yes you would die. What would you do?

Would you say yes knowing you could die or would you say no?

Bare in mind that if your faith is strong and it's God's desire for you to live you could very well live. Also even if you did say no, God would forgive you later (at least I think He would) if you asked for forgiveness. The problem though is that you would probably feel guilty for a long time to come. So which is it? Deny God and live or acknowledge Him and possibly die?

While he's waiting for me to respond, I'd move so I'm out of the line of fire (shift my body) while grabbing the gun hand and pushing it in the opposite direction to my body movement. Then I'd follow up with a kick to the groin, grab the gun, apply a wrist lock and disarm him. Then step back out of contact range, aim said gun at him and and answer his question in the affirmative.

"Yes, I do believe in God. Do you?"

Note: If someone is dumb enough to stick a gun in your face, and they are alone (they don't have an accomplice waiting somewhere to provide backup) then you have a very good chance of surviving that situation, if you can remain calm and you know what to do. Real bad man don't hold gun out so you can grab it. They stay from a distance and shoot from where the true efffectiveness of the weapon is found.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Also note: A person holding a gun to your face may not necessarily be speaking the truth. He may kill you no matter your answer to the question.

[AngelsKiss]

While he's waiting for me to respond, I'd move so I'm out of the line of fire (shift my body) while grabbing the gun hand and pushing it in the opposite direction to my body movement. Then I'd follow up with a kick to the groin, grab the gun, apply a wrist lock and disarm him. Then step back out of contact range, aim said gun at him and and answer his question in the affirmative.

"Yes, I do believe in God. Do you?"


Good that you can defend yourself. Not everyone can or will be able to act in that manner. An old lady with a walking stick for example wouldn't be able to do all that.

BTW you make it sounds so easy:icon_mrgr Has it occured to you that by the time you shift your body all it takes is for him to pull the trigger? I suppose this is based on the assumption that the gunman is an idiot or a fool?

In any event what I should have explained is that the question isn't so much about the gunman. It's about any individual who claims to believe and have faith in God. Peter denied Christ 3 times and he was told that he would deny Christ 3 times.

It may seems easy to just say yes we would be able to stand our ground, however, it is easier said than done.

I would like to believe I would do the right thing no matter what the cost but will I have the courage if I ever found myself in the situation? I truly don't know.


Also note: A person holding a gun to your face may not necessarily be speaking the truth. He may kill you no matter your answer to the question.

This is true, he may or may not hence the question, what to do?

[ramesh]

I suppose this is based on the assumption that the gunman is an idiot or a fool? He could be to leader of the free world for all I care. Anyone with a gun to my face cannot be mentally sound.

[Malloc-X]

i would say yes i beleive in god, if he shoots and i die. when i go to heaven i will get the 10 virgin females i was promised

[Xenocrates]

:dwl: :rotflm: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/lol.gif

[AngelsKiss]

i would say yes i beleive in god, if he shoots and i die. when i go to heaven i will get the 10 virgin females i was promised
If you believe that, I have a bridge in Peterbourough, Ontario to sell you. You interested? It's paved in gold and diamonds.

[AngelsKiss]

He could be to leader of the free world for all I care. Anyone with a gun to my face cannot be mentally sound.
So would you say yes you believe or no you don't or would you attempt to be like BCK? You gonna karate him to death too?:icon_mrgr

[Manu]

I'd say yes...whatever comes after is purely instinctive....

[ramesh]

I would say no. Why should I lie and die?

[Manu]

So I take it you don't Ramesh? Just wanna make it perfectly clear.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Good that you can defend yourself. Not everyone can or will be able to act in that manner. An old lady with a walking stick for example wouldn't be able to do all that.
Yeah, I know :icon_mrgr


BTW you make it sounds so easy:icon_mrgr Has it occured to you that by the time you shift your body all it takes is for him to pull the trigger?
If he intended to pull the trigger, he would have done that instead of asking you a question. He's expecting you to answer before he pulls the trigger. In any case, yes, a person can shift their body out of the line of fire faster than the time it takes for the gunman's eyes to detect said movement, process it, and send the signal to the finger to pull the trigger. When he does pull it, the gun won't be aiming at his intended target.

It is easy, if you are able to keep calm, keep your wits about you, and you know what to do. That comes with training, and/or experience. Some people have that instinct naturally. Some don't.


I suppose this is based on the assumption that the gunman is an idiot or a fool?
If he walks up to you yammering while holding a gun to your head, within grabbing range, then yes, he is a fool. Otherwise, he'd stay from a distance and shoot you, in which case, only divine intervention or his lousy aim, would save you.


In any event what I should have explained is that the question isn't so much about the gunman. It's about any individual who claims to believe and have faith in God. Peter denied Christ 3 times and he was told that he would deny Christ 3 times.

It may seems easy to just say yes we would be able to stand our ground, however, it is easier said than done.

I would like to believe I would do the right thing no matter what the cost but will I have the courage if I ever found myself in the situation? I truly don't know.

Here's how I see it: If I saw no way to escape or fight back, I wouldn't be wasting my time conversing with him, I'd be talking directly to God. I have nothing to prove to another human being, let alone some punk with a gun aimed at me. God already knows my heart, and if those are indeed my last moments, I'd rather spend it focusing on God, rather than on answering a gunman's question.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

:icon_arro BCK

You're using too many moves, I'd suggest blocking then a sharp chop to the neck 3'' below the temple, this cuts of oxygen to the brain and would immobilize him ... take the gun and squeeze.

Yeah.. punks have to pay !!!

:icon_arro AK

These questions aren't to be taken lightly and shouldn't be asked lightly .. If you've been in a life and death situation then you'd know what I mean.

Being a family man I've already put myself in the worst of situations and asked "what would I do? What is the worst that I can live with?"

I've decided that "no guy" is going to do anything he wants to I or do anything he wants with my family or I.
It is as simple as that.

I and I believe in the Creator so why should I fear death?

Having had three guns place in my direction and still being able to conquer proves everything to I.

Don't ask these questions lightly, it is not as simple as "what would you do?".
Any person who considers his own mortality and have faced these situations knows that how he faces it depends on how well he prepares for it.

Having a gun pointed at you is a different scenario than being placed in other situations of danger, but the effect is just the same .. and I can tell you this, praying helps.

Izemi-Clem

[emux]

i don't beleave in god so that whould be my answer

[AngelsKiss]

Hail

:icon_arro AK

These questions aren't to be taken lightly and shouldn't be asked lightly .. If you've been in a life and death situation then you'd know what I mean.

Izemi-Clem

I am not sure why you think I am taking this question lightly. I am not even sure where you are going with this topic. Then you say if I had been in a life and death situation I would know what you mean. In fact I can tell you I have been in a life and death situation. I have had gun pointed at me. However that was then and this is now.

I asked the question for a purpose. It is to find out what people think they will do. We can always say we will do something but until we are in the situation can we be very sure of how we will react?

I wanted people to really stop and think about it for a moment. To realise that while we think the answer is easy may be it isn't. As I said before, Peter thought he wouldn't deny Christ but he did. What assurances do we have that we will behave differently from Peter?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Hail

:icon_arro BCK

You're using too many moves, I'd suggest blocking then a sharp chop to the neck 3'' below the temple, this cuts of oxygen to the brain and would immobilize him ... take the gun and squeeze.

Yeah.. punks have to pay !!!

Hail Izemi.

Your block = my body shift and block/grab. It's all one motion. Body shift is important to get you out of line of fire.
Your head shot = my groin kick - they accomplish the same thing, temporarily distracting and disabling the opponent so you can disarm him. I chose groin kick, because his eyes aren't focusing down there, he's focusing where his gun is pointing - at your head, so whereas with a head shot, there's a chance he'd see it and move/block it, with the groin kick, he's less likely to see it coming.

I say go with the wrist lock then disarm, because just trying to grab the gun away may allow him an opportunity to fight back and pull it from you if he's strong enough. If he's holding onto the gun, he's vulnerable to a wrist lock.

There are other ways though, whatever works is good.




Being a family man I've already put myself in the worst of situations and asked "what would I do? What is the worst that I can live with?"

I've decided that "no guy" is going to do anything he wants to I or do anything he wants with my family or I.
It is as simple as that.

I and I believe in the Creator so why should I fear death?
Quite so!

When it's your time, it's your time. If you believe in the Creator, you know that this earthly physical death is not the worst thing that can happen, nor is it even permanent for those who find favour with God. So mek a guy try him next best!

[acidblade]

i don't beleave in god so that whould be my answer
ok, what if he asked you to spell beleave?:eusa_shif

[BlackCryptoKnight]

I wanted people to really stop and think about it for a moment. To realise that while we think the answer is easy may be it isn't. As I said before, Peter thought he wouldn't deny Christ but he did. What assurances do we have that we will behave differently from Peter?
You raise valid points AK, and it boils down to how strong your faith really is. If you really believe in God, then you know what He has promised for those faithful to Him. Death would not be so scary, and couldn't be used effectively as a means of coercing you to do wrong. If your faith isn't that strong, then that is where the trouble starts.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

ok, what if he asked you to spell beleave?:eusa_shif

Aye caramba. :rolleyes:

[bernie]

y'all remember the culombine shooting? i think one of the girls that died was asked that same question just before they shot her....

I have read the responses but here is my stance...
If i deny the God that i believe in then chances are, he will deny me
Brings me back to the three hebrew boys that refused to bow to that babylonian king
It's not the fact that they were spared by God that is the most amazing part
to me, but the fact that they were willing to face death, uncertain that their
Lord would save them or not.

If i seek to save my life, i will lose it, but if i lose it for the sake of my God
i will then find it in him.

[AngelsKiss]

You raise valid points AK, and it boils down to how strong your faith really is. If you really believe in God, then you know what He has promised for those faithful to Him. Death would not be so scary, and couldn't be used effectively as a means of coercing you to do wrong. If your faith isn't that strong, then that is where the trouble starts.

BCK...my point is, even though I think my faith is strong...I still wonder if I will maintain that strenght during such a time. I always go back to Peter who thought his faith was that strong but it turned out that it wasn't at the time.

Another example is Moses, while he wasn't facing a life or death situation, when God asked him to speak with his ppl he told God that he wasn't eloquent enough. God got angry with him. The fact is, his faith should have been so strong that he should not have doubted that God would give him the words.

I have also come to realise that sometimes we think our faith is so strong that we forget to be humble. We become arrogant and think we have all the answers.

I also believe that it's when I think my faith is strong is when I have to ask God to help me maintain my faith and to keep me grounded. The devil seems to work that much harder when you feel strong in your faith.

[ramesh]

So I take it you don't Ramesh? Just wanna make it perfectly clear.Put it this way: I'd rather not make it clear. ;)

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


I am not sure why you think I am taking this question lightly. I am not even sure where you are going with this topic

You and I differ AK, having been there you'd know how uncomfortable it is, I would not ask anyone to go there.
Each person safeguard their own faith and destiny, it is their responsibilty to arm their soul.
If a person has not at some point, thought about their own mortalitly, then I seriously doubt they would place must emphasis on such a question.

Then again that is just I.

However I do overstand what your intention is, and I certainly didn't intent to pass it off as being trival.

:icon_arro BCK

The martial arts, especially the various forms of Kung Fu utilizes a harmony of the body's motion scynchronized with skills.
It's execution is dependent on going against the flow of your opponnents motion as you know.

Trust mi king, with di I and I moves, di punk gone down before him blink :eusa_whis

Your moves tuff still, but maybe when you reach my level :eusa_whis

Hi-yaah !!!!!! (former kick boxing scholar)

Izemi-Clem

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail

:icon_arro AB

cool nuh king, cool nuh king !!!!!

Trust mi .. I fraid ah yuh !!!!!

:dwl: :dwl: :dwl:

Izemi-Clem

[BlackCryptoKnight]

BCK...my point is, even though I think my faith is strong...I still wonder if I will maintain that strenght during such a time. I always go back to Peter who thought his faith was that strong but it turned out that it wasn't at the time.
I hear you AK. Bernie said something quite profound.


If i seek to save my life, i will lose it, but if i lose it for the sake of my God
i will then find it in him.

There's a Bible verse to that effect (I'll have to search for it), and it is true.

You could very well deny God, and then get killed, so what would you have to lose by claiming Him in that situation?



I have also come to realise that sometimes we think our faith is so strong that we forget to be humble. We become arrogant and think we have all the answers.
Yup. Good point.


I also believe that it's when I think my faith is strong is when I have to ask God to help me maintain my faith and to keep me grounded. The devil seems to work that much harder when you feel strong in your faith.
Indeed. It's a struggle, but with God's help victory is achievable.

[nester-san]

What if, you do not believe in Christ/Christianity ?

Does this apply to Muslims/Buddists too ?

Cause then no would be a truthfull answer.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

:icon_arro BCK

The martial arts, especially the various forms of Kung Fu utilizes a harmony of the body's motion scynchronized with skills.
It's execution is dependent on going against the flow of your opponnents motion as you know.
Well, there are differing schools of thought with that. Arts like Judo, Aikido, and Wing Chun Kung Fu, don't advocate oposing your opponents force with force, but instead using their own force and motion against them, or even harmonising with that force and motion. Arts like Karate, the Northern Kung Fu styles, Taekwondo, Muay Thai etc. are more into opossing your opponents force and motion with your own.


Trust mi king, with di I and I moves, di punk gone down before him blink :eusa_whis

Your moves tuff still, but maybe when you reach my level :eusa_whis

Hi-yaah !!!!!! (former kick boxing scholar)

Izemi-Clem

I hear yuh boss. :icon_mrgr

[AngelsKiss]

There's a Bible verse to that effect (I'll have to search for it), and it is true.

You could very well deny God, and then get killed, so what would you have to lose by claiming Him in that situation?



Yes it's a verse and it's Luke 9:24.

Again I think you miss the point. It's not about whether you plan to deny God because you may die. It's about your faith being strong when the time comes. Peter didn't planed on denying Christ but it happened anyway. What I am trying to get at is that while we may all decide that we will be like Job, can we say with absolute certainty that we won't be like Peter?

Having asked the question, it made me stop and seriously think. The answer I have received so far made me realised that while many of us talk about faith and at the same time talked about responding with martial arts, the truth is none of us can know how the situation would play out if we are faced with such a situation.

This therefore means that the important thing is that we accept whatever He decides for us. In other words, the answer lies not with how much martial arts you know. You could be the best martial arts person in the world and you may still end up dead.

The answer lies with God, knowing Him and seeking to follow the path He chooses for you/me and all who believe in Him.

[acidblade]

Hail

:icon_arro AB

cool nuh king, cool nuh king !!!!!

Trust mi .. I fraid ah yuh !!!!!

:dwl:

Izemi-Clem
:icon_mrgr :icon_mrgr :icon_mrgr

[Manu]

You know it just occurred to me that many of us say that we wouldn't deny christ in a situation like that..but yet we deny Christ in our everyday lifestyle..atleast some of us...by not acting Christ-like and putting other things before Him. It's pretty much the same thing. It's just that no gun is at our head.

[bernie]

You know it just occurred to me that many of us say that we wouldn't deny christ in a situation like that..but yet we deny Christ in our everyday lifestyle..atleast some of us...by not acting Christ-like and putting other things before Him. It's pretty much the same thing. It's just that no gun is at our head.
:eusa_thin
Very valid point you made there manu...indeed
For the this reason, my must (those of us the do believe) pray always
that we be guided by our creator, lest we forget about our true purposes,
hence, denying our Lord. We must assess our lives in God, making every
effort to be found in his divine will ;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

You know it just occurred to me that many of us say that we wouldn't deny christ in a situation like that..but yet we deny Christ in our everyday lifestyle..atleast some of us...by not acting Christ-like and putting other things before Him. It's pretty much the same thing. It's just that no gun is at our head.

True words.

If our faith is truly strong, and we are seeking the Lord continually and consistently throughout our lives, there would be no doubt as to how we would respond in the situation described by AK.

[AngelsKiss]

True words.

If our faith is truly strong, and we are seeking the Lord continually and consistently throughout our lives, there would be no doubt as to how we would respond in the situation described by AK.


Exactly...now you understand what I have been trying to say. If our faith is so strong our first response shouldn't be about us using martial arts to deflect the situation or about defending ourselves and love ones.

Our first thoughts should be to acknowledge God's awesome power and to submit to His will whatever it maybe.

Often times we think we have the answers, however, it is on deeper reflection we realise that we don't, not in the first instance anyway. This is why I asked the question.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Exactly...now you understand what I have been trying to say. If our faith is so strong our first response shouldn't be about us using martial arts to deflect the situation or about defending ourselves and love ones.

Our first thoughts should be to acknowledge God's awesome power and to submit to His will whatever it maybe.

Often times we think we have the answers, however, it is on deeper reflection we realise that we don't, not in the first instance anyway. This is why I asked the question.

:icon_mrgr

I got what you were saying from the start. As I said earlier, rather than focusing on proving anything to this guy, I'd talk directly to God and seek His guidance.


Bare in mind that if your faith is strong and it's God's desire for you to live you could very well live.

I interpret the fact that there is a window of opportunity to escape due to how the guy has approached me as an indication of God's will for me to survive. If I am able to defeat the enemy, it is because of God. It is my faith in Him that would give me the strength to fight.

[acidblade]

I'd talk directly to God and seek His guidance.

suppose him nuh answer you, what then?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

suppose him nuh answer you, what then?
He always answers or responds but not necessarily in the way you want to, or expect.

[acidblade]

He always answers or responds but not necessarily in the way you want to, or expect.
:eusa_thin :eusa_thin

[AngelsKiss]

:icon_mrgr

I got what you were saying from the start. As I said earlier, rather than focusing on proving anything to this guy, I'd talk directly to God and seek His guidance.


Ok so now I know you got it. I didn't then because your first response was about what martial arts technique you would use. To me a person who is very strong in their faith would and who put God first would have said that they would rely on God to take care of them not beging by telling me about martial arts. I even went on to explained that the issue was about the gunman, but about faith. :)

In fact the person who responded in the manner I expected was Bernie. He didn't talk about saving himself. Instead he recognised that the only thing that matter was God's choice for him.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Ok so now I know you got it. I didn't then because your first response was about what martial arts technique you would use. To me a person who is very strong in their faith would and who put God first would have said that they would rely on God to take care of them not beging by telling me about martial arts. I even went on to explained that the issue was about the gunman, but about faith. :)
That's why humans aren't fit to judge others, for they know not what is truly in another's heart. ;)


In fact the person who responded in the manner I expected was Bernie. He didn't talk about saving himself. Instead he recognised that the only thing that matter was God's choice for him.

Acting to get out of danger fast doesn't mean that one doesn't have faith.
If that guy had intended to kill you, you wouldn't have time to think about God's plan for you at that moment. Faith isn't only expressed by words, nor does its expression have to conform to another human's ideal of faith.

[AngelsKiss]

That's why humans aren't fit to judge others, for they know not what is truly in another's heart. ;)


Yes people shouldn't judge, but what does judging have to do with this topic? We are not talking about judging anyone. I am talking about an expression of faith. Do I have what it takes in the moment when it is required? That's the question.


If that guy had intended to kill you, you wouldn't have time to think about God's plan for you at that moment.

Not true, we are what we practice and live by on a daily basis. If we trust God and live by his teachings every day we will prepared for it when the time comes. Shadrach, Meshach and Abendigo didn't hesitate when they were faced with death. They were not concerned with saving themselves. They trusted in God and left the outcome to Him.

[ramesh]

Let me see if I can break this down a bit more.

Situation: You are a God-fearing person. A man with a gun, whose purpose is unknown, decides to push his gun in your face and tells you he will kill you if you affirm your faith in God. What do you do?

Deductions: The gunman is obviously not of the Christian faith. Christians, by definition, would not hold a gun on you and threaten to kill you, even if you were or were not of his faith. The email going around with gunmen telling the pastor that they got rid of the riff-raff is a bunch of bull, excuse the language. I'm sure in RL, the pastor would have kicked out the gunmen.

Reasoning: You are a Christian. You have faith that God will get you out of this situation. If not, you die and go to Heaven. Either way, it's a win-win situation. But what would God want you to do?

Your choices:

1. Affirm your faith. The gunman (who cannot be Christian from deduction above) will kill you or have mercy on you (of course through Divine intervention). Result: You go to Heaven or you get a gunman converted.

2. Resist and do the Karachi George on the gunman. You capture a wanted criminal, turn him over to the law and no one else dies. Or, he kills you, you go to Heaven and he's there loose killing more Christians who will go to Heaven. Still a win-win situation.

3. You deny God (three times if you wish). He kills you (because he doesn't believe you) or lets you go. If you live, you will go to Hell and he will continue killing Christians who will go to Heaven (unlike you).

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


Ok so now I know you got it. I didn't then because your first response was about what martial arts technique you would use. To me a person who is very strong in their faith would and who put God first would have said that they would rely on God to take care of them not beging by telling me about martial arts. I even went on to explained that the issue was about the gunman, but about faith.


I disagree .. first of all it isn't practical

God's guidance isn't an "at the moment" thing, his guidance is constant and throughout; with us at at times as much as we allow him to be a part of our lives.

At the moment of danger our response will be by instinct, how we have prepared ourselves and also by what condition our mind is in.
By instinct our first response will be to protect ourselves and our families if they are in the same situation at the same time.

I pity those who will need to have a gun pointed at them to consider and reflect on their relationship with God.
A spiritually developed person moves with God's guidance perpetually and recognizes that each step he takes is by God's will.

I remember in my own situation, each movement I made was a prayer and at all times I considered that I might not see my loved ones again. Yet my movements were controlled because he comforted I, at all times I knew he was there with I and I knew that I would be alright, regardless of what happened.

Faith allows you to do many things, you make a choice how to use your faith; if your faith gives you enough confidence to disarm your attacker, to flee from him or even to stand and allow whatever to happen then it is up to you how you use that faith.
Some of us are more prepared than others and it is based on this preparation that will determine your response, it is Jah's will which will determine the outcome.

Izemi-Clem

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Yes people shouldn't judge, but what does judging have to do with this topic? We are not talking about judging anyone. I am talking about an expression of faith. Do I have what it takes in the moment when it is required? That's the question.
I was referring to your comment about how you expected a person with strong faith to respond.


Not true, we are what we practice and live by on a daily basis. If we trust God and live by his teachings every day we will prepared for it when the time comes.Shadrach, Meshach and Abendigo didn't hesitate when they were faced with death. They were not concerned with saving themselves. They trusted in God and left the outcome to Him.

We saying the same thing to a point. We need to be prepared, because when certain situations arise, there will be no time for agonizing over what to do, there will only be time to act.

However, the case of the 3 Hebrew boys is different from the scenario you described of a person holding a gun to your head and asking that question. Those 3 boys had time to think and ruminate over what to do. Yes, they were resolute from early, but they had time to mull it over. Guy holding gun to your head on the street is a different scenario. You aint got much time to think things over. Also, they were asked to do something against God, the guy with the gun is just asking you whether you believed in God or not. 2 different things.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Hail



I disagree .. first of all it isn't practical

God's guidance isn't an "at the moment" thing, his guidance is constant and throughout; with us at at times as much as we allow him to be a part of our lives.

At the moment of danger our response will be by instinct, how we have prepared ourselves and also by what condition our mind is in.
By instinct our first response will be to protect ourselves and our families if they are in the same situation at the same time.

I pity those who will need to have a gun pointed at them to consider and reflect on their relationship with God.
A spiritually developed person moves with God's guidance perpetually and recognizes that each step he takes is by God's will.

I remember in my own situation, each movement I made was a prayer and at all times I considered that I might not see my loved ones again. Yet my movements were controlled because he comforted I, at all times I knew he was there with I and I knew that I would be alright, regardless of what happened.

Faith allows you to do many things, you make a choice how to use your faith; if your faith gives you enough confidence to disarm your attacker, to flee from him or even to stand and allow whatever to happen then it is up to you how you use that faith.
Some of us are more prepared than others and it is based on this preparation that will determine your response, it is Jah's will which will determine the outcome.

Izemi-Clem

:eusa_clap

Well said. Sometimes He tells you to move. Sometimes He tells you to be still. If you are in tune, you will hear what He is saying.

[AngelsKiss]

I was referring to your comment about how you expected a person with strong faith to respond.

BCK...that wasn't about judging, it's about any person whose faith is strong. I explained earlier on that I am not sure how I would react since I realise my faith isn't as strong as it should be. I went on to explain that it's at them moment when we think our faith is strong we need to pray that much harder.

By questioning what I would do in such a situation, it makes me realise that thinking my faith is strong, it's not really strong at all. I constantly have to evaluate my faith by looking at how I live my life and the possible scenarios I could be faced with. In some scenarios I realised that I do not hesitate to rely on God, in others it's as if I complete forget Him and what He can do.


However, the case of the 3 Hebrew boys is different from the scenario you described of a person holding a gun to your head and asking that question.

No it's not so different, a person whose faith is weak immediately do what they are told. In their case they didn't hesitate. Their first thought wasn't about themselves, it's about God.

Yes, I understand the fight or flight response, but a person of extremely strong faith wouldn't worry about that, they are concern with affirming their faith and acknowledging God. As Christ said to Peter, before the day is over you will deny me 3 times and Peter faced with death said he would not but he did because he wanted to save himself. Christ wanted to prove a point to Peter...how strong really is your faith.

Faith is not something that we can just say we have and think it's always there. We have to constantly work at it. We are humans and so we will have moments of dispair and weaknesses. As I said before the devil work at us when we are at our strongest.

Another example of true faith is when God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Abraham didn't hesitate, he didn't plead with God to save his son. He accepted what was asked of him. That's an expression of absolute faith in God.

[Bahama Mama]

Someone put a gun to your face and asked you if you believed in God and they told you if you said yes you would die. What would you do?

Would you say yes knowing you could die or would you say no?

Bare in mind that if your faith is strong and it's God's desire for you to live you could very well live. Also even if you did say no, God would forgive you later (at least I think He would) if you asked for forgiveness. The problem though is that you would probably feel guilty for a long time to come. So which is it? Deny God and live or acknowledge Him and possibly die?


The scenario described above in my opinion is not a good method to accurately deduce the strength of someone's faith in God or any diety for that matter. Like Izemi mentioned, we humans would be governed by our instinct for survival. Whether that be to tell the gunman what he wants to hear or do some http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a321/RochelleF/nunchuku.gif and kick his or her a$z. The strength of one's faith in that particular situation wouldnt rest on a 'yes' or 'no', but being reserved to the fact that God's will will be done irregarldess. I think many Christians would give into fear to be quite honest, that is a powerful thing that we as humans were equipped with. Even Jesus was afraid to die.

I dont think it is fair to judge faith in that manner.

*BM goes to sign up for some Kungfu lessons, cause she isnt going down without a fight*

[nuhsenutten]

:rofl:
He could be to leader of the free world for all I care. Anyone with a gun to my face cannot be mentally sound.


:rofl: :rofl:

[AngelsKiss]

The scenario described above in my opinion is not a good method to accurately deduce the strength of someone's faith in God or any diety for that matter. Like Izemi mentioned, we humans would be governed by our instinct for survival. Whether that be to tell the gunman what he wants to hear or do some http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a321/RochelleF/nunchuku.gif and kick his or her a$z. The strength of one's faith in that particular situation wouldnt rest on a 'yes' or 'no', but being reserved to the fact that God's will will be done irregarldess. I think many Christians would give into fear to be quite honest, that is a powerful thing that we as humans were equipped with. Even Jesus was afraid to die.

I dont think it is fair to judge faith in that manner.

*BM goes to sign up for some Kungfu lessons, cause she isnt going down without a fight*

In that event, Peter should have just kicked the butts of those who accused him of knowing Christ. Shadrach, Meshach and Abendigo should have thought about defending themselves instead of rebelling against Pharaoh and Abraham should have worried about his son dying instead of doing exactly as God asked :)

[Bahama Mama]

In that event, Peter should have just kicked the butts of those who accused him of knowing Christ.

He could have, just for them being nosey:)


Shadrach, Meshach and Abendigo should have thought about defending themselves instead of rebelling against Pharaoh

Well if they tried who could have blamed them, getting burned alive I imagine isnt fun. Wasnt it Nebudcadnezzar of Babylon they were rebelling against?


and Abraham should have worried about his son dying instead of doing exactly as God asked :)

It is the instinct of most parents to protect their kids. When their kids are in danger, the adrenaline shoots up and they get in protective mode, most times ignoring all others. I am not saying he should have, but if he did it would have been a natural reaction.

[Xenocrates]

I explained earlier on that I am not sure how I would react since I realise my faith isn't as strong as it should be.

- The answer to your concern is simple: If one has to think that hard about how they'd respond, it's quite likely that their ID would overpower their EGO, and they would give in to fear and deny their faith. You don't have to think that hard about it.


...Peter faced with death said he would not but he did because he wanted to save himself. Christ wanted to prove a point to Peter...how strong really is your faith.

- Peter would not have flinched if Christ wasn't willing to submit. Don't you remember that Peter drew his sword and was ready to fight? He even lobbed off the ear of one of the senturions! Peter's faith was strong - it was just misplaced. Christ wasn't trying to prove the strength of Peter's faith. He wanted to show Peter that his faith was based on all the wrong things.

Christ wanted to show Peter that:

He (like many expectant Jews) was relying on a military redeemer, not a philosophical one.


He was relying too much on his own physical strength to power his faith.


He was possessed with an obnoxious, un-christlike spirit which would have prevented him from inheriting eternal life.


His faith was placed on the physical man Christ, and not the concept that he was trying to sell to him.

Thus when Christ submitted himself to the execution squad, the bottom fell out from under everything that sustained Peter's faith. He became weak, because like many Christians today, they have faith in their pastor, some church leader, the church organisation, but not in Christianity itself. That's why Peter ended up denying Christ. Peter only fully understood what Christ was telling him when Christ was removed from the picture for an extended period of time and he was finally crucified.

Peter's denial serves a much deeper purpose than to say "How strong is your faith?". Peter's denial exists primarily to show us God fearing persons, that if your faith is placed in a physical thing, be it man, an organisation or military power, then your faith can be destroyed once that physical thing is removed. Many Christians backslide when:


The Pastor impregnates two sisters in the church.


They go off to a college in the United States and get brainwashed by the liberal teachings there.


They experience a traumatic event in their life (such as a death in the family).


The church organisation they belong turns out to be yet another christian cult.





A person who doesn't know what they would do if a gun is placed in their face is not someone who has their faith based in the right place. That person is still more or less caught up with their physical life. It demonstrates a fear of loosing that life. They still have an affixation of sorts to it. It also insinuates that they don't value the life that is expected afterwards. Someone whose faith is based on the sublime reality of life after death, would be quite literally smiling if a gunman put a gun in their face. In fact, they'd be asking the gunman to do them a favour and free them!

So the question here is not:

How [I]strong is your faith?

but rather it is:

Where is your faith?

Think about it. ;)

[AngelsKiss]

He could have, just for them being nosey:)
BM you are too funny :)


Well if they tried who could have blamed them, getting burned alive I imagine isnt fun. Wasnt it Nebudcadnezzar of Babylon they were rebelling against?

It is the instinct of most parents to protect their kids. When their kids are in danger, the adrenaline shoots up and they get in protective mode, most times ignoring all others. I am not saying he should have, but if he did it would have been a natural reaction.

Yes it is a natural reaction because our faith isn't as strong as it should be and no it's not about blaming anyone. However, my concern is that my faith should be so strong that it doesn't matter whether I live or die, but instead know that God will take care of me.

To me saying that I will fight back shouldn't be what's important. I could fight back and die, because God has determined that it's time for me to come home. Instead, I want to know that because my faith is strong the only thing that matters is given that situation, my first thoughts will be of God not myself. If He decides I am to live no one can killed me. If he decides for me to come home then nothing I do or say will matter.


The answer to your concern is simple: If one has to think that hard about how they'd respond, it's quite likely that their ID would overpower their EGO, and they would give in to fear and deny their faith. You don't have to think that hard about it.

That's the crux of my argument, when our faith is strong we don't need to think about what we will do. However, it is important that we continue to live the life of faith in everything we do, since faith is not an overnight achievement.


Christ wanted to show Peter that:
He (like many expectant Jews) was relying on a military redeemer, not a philosophical one.

He was relying too much on his own physical strength to power his faith.

He was possessed with an obnoxious, un-christlike spirit which would have prevented him from inheriting eternal life.

His faith was placed on the physical man Christ, and not the concept that he was trying to sell to him.

That's exactly my point. However, I also wanted to point out that faith is not just something we have and that's it. Faith is something we have to keep working on. I repeat again, its when we are our strongest that the devil tries to tear us down. So when someone says to me that they pity me because I have to question it, I say do not pity me. Instead pray for me. Pitying me doesn't help the situation. None of us can claim absolute faith. Abraham was one of the few, so was Job. Abrahams faith was such that when God said sacrifice your son he didn't ask why. Instead he said yes Lord.


Where is your faith?

This I agree with, it's more or less syntax.

[Xenocrates]

Faith is something we have to keep working on.

- I concur, especially since faith is based on evidence not seen. I see the point of your thread. It's good to be reminded of our mortality every once in a while. It keeps things in focus. In fact, this thread reminds me of a scripture:


Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.


Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

I think this thread is a timely one. It reminds me of the upcoming tribulations that will affect Christians worldwide. It's good to be reminded that our physical lives are naught but a physical states of transition for something else. It's only a pity that atheists have nothing to look forward to...

...well at least, according to them. :eusa_thin

[AngelsKiss]

- I concur, especially since faith is based on evidence not seen. I see the point of your thread. It's good to be reminded of our mortality every once in a while. It keeps things in focus.

Finally...someone other than Bernie really understand.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Finally...someone other than Bernie really understand.
<sigh> :rolleyes:

[AngelsKiss]

<sigh> :rolleyes:
Pray tell why the roll eyes?

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Pray tell why the roll eyes?
I had forgotten how it felt when we didn't agree on something. :icon_mrgr

[AngelsKiss]

I had forgotten how it felt when we didn't agree on something. :icon_mrgr
Hush don't feel too bad because we didn't agree...I still lub you. God says we must lub everyone even when we do not agree :icon_mrgr

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Hush don't feel too bad because we didn't agree...I still lub you. God says we must lub everyone even when we do not agree :icon_mrgr

. :icon_mrgr

[Bahama Mama]

Paramount faith, the kind that allows you to smile while looking down the barrel of a shotgun, is the kind that requires conditioning. That kind of faith doesnt just kick into gear, without having walked the line between life and death at least once before. I think for a new Christian who hasnt been through the trials and tribulations that would make them attest to the power of their faith, they would submit to their instinctual fear.

It takes alot for anyone to get to that point of serenity and submission.

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


That's the crux of my argument, when our faith is strong we don't need to think about what we will do

Again I have to disagree with you AK, that statement couldn't be more incorrect, preparation is an essential part of any faith, just as much as you prepare for life, you prepare for death.

There is no scripture, no testament that extols the believer to sit by and wait for something to happen.
Whatever it is that may happen to us.

What we cannot foresee or expect to happen, we leave in the Creators hands, is will be done.

Then again it is your perception of faith which determines your livity and how you deal with adverse situation.
As well as it is your outlook on life which determine how much you value you place on your own life as well as the lives of those you hold dear to you.

These values determine what is worth living and dying for, because we are each giving this gift of life to make the best use of it.

Being strong or weak in faith doesn't determine what you will do in any eventuality, those who are strong and assured of their faith know that they will be given the courage and blessing to do what they decide to do, no matter the outcome.

When I walk through this valley I fear no evil, for He is with I

Izemi-Clem

[AngelsKiss]

Paramount faith, the kind that allows you to smile while looking down the barrel of a shotgun, is the kind that requires conditioning. That kind of faith doesnt just kick into gear, without having walked the line between life and death at least once before. I think for a new Christian who hasnt been through the trials and tribulations that would make them attest to the power of their faith, they would submit to their instinctual fear.

It takes alot for anyone to get to that point of serenity and submission.
BM...not just a new Christian...we all have to keep working at it until we can be like Abraham and Job and instead of asking why or thinking about it accept God's plans for us.

[AngelsKiss]

Hail

Again I have to disagree with you AK, that statement couldn't be more incorrect, preparation is an essential part of any faith, just as much as you prepare for life, you prepare for death.

There is no scripture, no testament that extols the believer to sit by and wait for something to happen.
Whatever it is that may happen to us.

Izemi-Clem

May be I didn't explain it properly but I think you miss the point. My point is that when your faith is in God, one doesn't worry about death or focus on death. You accept that you will die anyway and focus on living the life God intended us to live. For example I remember my mom use to tell me that she never worry about dying because ultimately she will be with God. It reminds me of this verse when Christ was on the cross:

Mark 14:36 - "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me; nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."

[ramesh]

You accept that you will die anyway and focus on living the life God intended us to live. So the point of going through life, since we are going to die anyway is....? On your argument the time we spend living is only brawta. The real point of living is to die? ;)

[AngelsKiss]

So the point of going through life, since we are going to die anyway is....? On your argument the time we spend living is only brawta. The real point of living is to die? ;)
The point of living is to serve God,however, since you say you don't believe in God then telling you this is probably a waste of your time :icon_mrgr

[Izemi-Clem]

Hail


May be I didn't explain it properly but I think you miss the point. My point is that when your faith is in God, one doesn't worry about death or focus on death. You accept that you will die anyway and focus on living the life God intended us to live.

Maybe you didn't .. That point was taken some time ago, IMO you threw the discussion off track with several statements which contradicted the point.


:icon_arro Ramesh

Faith or no faith each person determines the purpose and reality of his own existence.
It may all seem relative but ultimately it is what you beleive or don't beleive which defines this purpose.

What you believe determines how you live your life, how you live your life defines who are, who you are defines your purpose.

Izemi-Clem