How do You know?

[Greatis]

How do you know you're alive?

[Nika_869]

Never know. they say I breathe, eat, walk and talk so I assume that I am.

[ramesh]

How do you know you're alive?Good question. I do wonder about that myself. I suppose if I were not alive, how would I be wondering about it? But then I may be imagining questioning myself, but can I do that if I were not alive?

[Greatis]

Good question. I do wonder about that myself. I suppose if I were not alive, how would I be wondering about it? But then I may be imagining questioning myself, but can I do that if I were not alive?

good questions but let's try to prove beyond the reason of doubt that we are alive. Facts if any please provide.

[Gillion]

Oh lord I can see this thread becoming a cacophony of views.

[bernie]

I really dont know how to answer this....i'll just watch the thread grow.

[Bahama Mama]

We dont (for sure). But the perception itself is comforting enough.

[bernie]

Ok, i thing we should start by defining 'alive'

[RachieBabie]

can you see dead people??

[Greatis]

Ok, i thing we should start by defining 'alive'

1. having life; living; existing; not dead or lifeless.
2. living (used for emphasis): the proudest man alive.
3. in a state of action; in force or operation; active: to keep hope alive.
4. full of energy and spirit; lively: Grandmother's more alive than most of her contemporaries.
5. having the quality of life; vivid; vibrant: The room was alive with color.

This is according to Dictionary.com.

I am liking those three definitions

[BlackCryptoKnight]

From basic biology, living things :

Breath
Move
Excrete
Grow
Adapt
Reproduce
Eat

[Manu]

From basic biology, living things :

Breath
Move
Excrete
Grow
Adapt - More precisely, respond to stimuli
Reproduce
Eat


Fixed!


No need for a bill. Paid in full already :)

[Lisa20]

I really don't get this Thread................How would you not know that you are alive??????

[nuhsenutten]

From basic biology, living things :

Breath
Move
Excrete
Grow
Adapt
Reproduce
Eat

HOW U KNO THAT MAKES U ALIVE .......U EVER DIE YET ?:icon_mrgr ..........:eusa_shif

[Gillion]

What does it mean to be alive ?

[Justice]

None of us is ‘alive’ we are all hook up to the matrix waiting for the day God will come and unhook us :jestera:

But on a more serious note though, if you want to know if you are alive try committing suicide it will prove to you once and for all whether you were alive or not.

[RachieBabie]

None of us is ‘alive’ we are all hook up to the matrix waiting for the day God will come and unhook us :jestera:

But on a more serious note though, if you want to know if you are alive try committing suicide it will prove to you once and for all whether you were alive or not.
but if u commited suicide tht wud imply u were alive... but thn if u r ded.... tht option is not possible... is it? U WONT BE ABLE TO 'PROVE U WERE ALIVE BY COMMITING SUICIDE SINCE U ALREID DED...(scratches head..... quite confused rite now)

can u re-kill urself...lol... this feels silly.... reminds me of the movie THE OTHERS,which was a gud movie....

thrs a movie coming out bout tryin to find your killer in your ded state

[Manu]

Yeah.... I wah watch it.... still

[Nika_869]

can you see dead people??

Uhmm..yes :icon_cry:

[nuhsenutten]

Uhmm..yes :icon_cry:

dem mussi never go funeral yet ? :eusa_shif

[Lisa20]

dem mussi never go funeral yet ? :eusa_shif

My sentiments exactly....:eusa_wall :eusa_wall

[AngelsKiss]

How do you know you're alive?

Well you know you are alive because you breath, feel, see think, etc and so do others. They can see, feel and even smell you.

The flipside to that is we are all ghost, or the ppl who can see you are ghost just like you:)

[nuhsenutten]

u kno that u r all mad right.................:dwl:

[smiles]

but if u commited suicide tht wud imply u were alive... but thn if u r ded.... tht option is not possible... is it? U WONT BE ABLE TO 'PROVE U WERE ALIVE BY COMMITING SUICIDE SINCE U ALREID DED...(scratches head..... quite confused rite now)

can u re-kill urself...lol... this feels silly.... reminds me of the movie THE OTHERS,which was a gud movie....

thrs a movie coming out bout tryin to find your killer in your ded state

Let me help you out... If u commit suicide and nothing happens then u prob werent alive in the first place. If you 'die' then it means u moved from one state (alive) to another (dead). unfortunately you just wont be able to prove to anyone else that you were alive... because even though your state has changed, they still cant prove that you are dead... they just define you as dead based on biological research.. but millions of people are probably buried alive... in a comatic state. (is comatic a word?

[smiles]

To be alive is to posses life. Life speaks to a state of existence. So I belive the question would need to be more specific and speak to a particular realm of existence. For example: Within a particular realm where individuls share a common characteristic of existence, each individual is alive in that realm until they lose that characteristic.

So to be alive in human terms is to breathe, excrete etc. as was previously mentioned; and death in this realm would ofcourse be a body that can not carry out these functions.

Therefore, morphing into the spirit realm, renders the individual dead as a human but alive as a spirit. As such, a 'thing' can never be totally dead, just dead to a particular realm of existence. Plants, Water, Humans, even your Faeces.

So to fix the question:
How do you know you are alive within the human/earthly realm?

Answer:
Because I posses the definitive characteristics of human/earthly 'aliveness'.

UWI dont get credit for that one :-)

[Cocoa]

I know I am alive because I am not dead.:rolleyes:

[Xenocrates]

Greatis asked a very good question. So far, I'm not sure anyone has answered it. But I found this particular post by Smiles to be a summation of everything said so far, and thus this might be a great place to put a turning point on this discussion:


To be alive is to posses life.
- How do you know that your 'life' isn't simulated? How do you know that you aren't merely a simulation of someone else's wants and desires? - like a robot?


Life speaks to a state of existence. So I belive the question would need to be more specific and speak to a particular realm of existence.
- I disagree. How do you know that you are actively participating in ANY realm of existence? For all I know, you could be an intelligence with the power to trancend into this reality - like angels or demons. When angels visit the earth, men always thought them to be 'alive' in the sense that many people on the board have defined being alive. But are angels and other such supernatural entities truly alive?

Let's examine your definition. If you check an Angel's pulse, it wouldn't have one. Demons don't have a pulse either. Neither of them breathe. Neither of them reproduce. Neither angels nor demons use the bathroom, and they most certainly don't die. SO, If your consciousness doesn't exist here in this plane of existence, would I still consider you to be alive?


For example: Within a particular realm where individuls share a common characteristic of existence, each individual is alive in that realm until they lose that characteristic.
- So then, since God has no corporeal form in this realm, does that mean that God is dead in this realm?

Consider this: Does the death of a corporeal form mean that an entity is no longer alive or does it mean that their energy form has merely transformed from one state to another? Do you think that your corpus (i.e. your physical body) defines you as having life? If so, then let me ask you another question:

How do you know that your physical body is real? Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is real? Better yet, can you define what it is for something to be real? Do you realise that "reality" is only defined in your brain? Have you ever had a dream that "felt" real? Do you realise that you only realise that the dream wasn't real when you woke up?

So tell me dear smiles, how do you know that you're not dreaming now? ;)


So to be alive in human terms is to breathe, excrete etc. as was previously mentioned; and death in this realm would ofcourse be a body that can not carry out these functions.
- In human terms? Why assume that humanity is defined by our biological functions? Are you saying that if I managed to transport a human brain with spinal column into a machine which had a perfect simulation of all of the fleshly functions of its original body, that it is no longer human? If I managed to code a human consciousness using software inside a super computer of epic processing power, would that computer be any less human than the original model that I used to create it?

[MOAR...]

[Xenocrates]

Therefore, morphing into the spirit realm, renders the individual dead as a human but alive as a spirit..
- Questions:

Do we 'morph' into the spirit realm, or are we already in the spirit realm, just bound by a corporeal plane of existence which is parallel to, but mutually exclusive OF the spirit realm?


Does death end with the failure of our corporeal functions? The essence of our being is pure energy. We all know that. However, if the body dies, the essence of your being doesn't become lost since it's made of pure energy. Since energy can never be destroyed (as per the first law of thermodynamics) does death in the physical simulacrum effectively equal to the death of a being?



As such, a 'thing' can never be totally dead, just dead to a particular realm of existence. Plants, Water, Humans, even your Faeces.
- Faeces has sentient energy? Since when? http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/lol.gif (I'm kidding) But I agree with your point here - I don't think it's fair to say that any sentient being truly dies.


So to fix the question:
How do you know you are alive within the human/earthly realm?
- The question doesn't need fixing. It can be answered in its original state. For all of you who answered the question by defining what it is to be a living thing, then you've completely misunderstood the question. Greatis isn't asking you to define something for his Biology homework. This is a purely philosophical question:

How can your prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you have life? You can't say that it's because you perform biological functions. You can DREAM of those functions too and they still make you feel alive in your dreams - until you wake up. So if your mind can fool you into thinking that you are alive and having an experience which isn't real, then how can you prove that your mind isn't doing the same thing now? How can you tell whether or not your "biological" functions are even happening for real?


Answer:
Because I posses the definitive characteristics of human/earthly 'aliveness'.
- Insufficient. As far as you know, your brain could be in a vat of amniotic fluid being fed by a thousand electrodes, feeding you all of your physical, corporeal sensations that you define as being alive. You have absolutely NO way of using this definition to prove for sure that you are indeed alive, as opposed to being some simulation that some higher being concocted for their own insiduous pleasure.

Can anyone answer these questions?


UWI dont get credit for that one :-)
- The Gods be praised. :eusa_pray :icon_mrgr

[recursion]

- Questions:
As far as you know, your brain could be in a vat of amniotic fluid being fed by a thousand electrodes


Forget the brain all you need is the mind. Everything else, including your brain could be just a concept. We now nor will we ever know beyond a shadow of a doubt, what IS. We can only make assumptions based on that which we have experienced; until of course we experience something that blows those assumptions out of the water.

[recursion]

Forget the brain all you need is the mind. Everything else, including your brain could be just a concept. We now nor will we ever know beyond a shadow of a doubt, what IS. We can only make assumptions based on that which we have experienced; until of course we experience something that blows those assumptions out of the water.

Utter rubbish, how do you come up with bull like that

[ramesh]

Forget the brain all you need is the mind. Everything else, including your brain could be just a concept. We now nor will we ever know beyond a shadow of a doubt, what IS. We can only make assumptions based on that which we have experienced; until of course we experience something that blows those assumptions out of the water.

Utter rubbish, how do you come up with bull like that
I'm confused..... are you calling what you wrote "rubbish"? :eusa_shif :icon_mrgr :icon_lol:

[recursion]

I'm confused..... are you calling what you wrote "rubbish"? :eusa_shif :icon_mrgr :icon_lol:

Just trying to beat everyone else to the punch...........:eusa_shhh :confused:

[root_gal]

How do I know I am alive? It's simple really:

Back in 2010 before all the Martians moved to Trelawny, Simba ate an apple and all the Chinese persons shut their eyes. This led what was known as the 'Beginning of the End'. . .and God invented the light bulb. 'The Man' made rice and peas for all the hungry lions in Africa and they pledged their allegiance to Microsoft. Throw in some angels and a singing frog and them bam!. . .I'm alive! Don't understand? Then maybe you are not alive and you have bigger problems to worry about :confused: .

[jamerican]

How do I know I am alive? It's simple really:

Back in 2010 before all the Martians moved to Trelawny, Simba ate an apple and all the Chinese persons shut their eyes. This led what was known as the 'Beginning of the End'. . .and God invented the light bulb. 'The Man' made rice and peas for all the hungry lions in Africa and they pledged their allegiance to Microsoft. Throw in some angels and a singing frog and them bam!. . .I'm alive! Don't understand? Then maybe you are not alive and you have bigger problems to worry about :confused: .
hahahah root_gal you alrite??? wake up on wrong side of the bed??

[ramesh]

Makes perfect sense to me! ;)

[AngelsKiss]

How do I know I am alive? It's simple really:

Back in 2010 before all the Martians moved to Trelawny, Simba ate an apple and all the Chinese persons shut their eyes. This led what was known as the 'Beginning of the End'. . .and God invented the light bulb. 'The Man' made rice and peas for all the hungry lions in Africa and they pledged their allegiance to Microsoft. Throw in some angels and a singing frog and them bam!. . .I'm alive! Don't understand? Then maybe you are not alive and you have bigger problems to worry about :confused: .

:dwl: :dwl: :jestera:


Rooty...I have to say I always find your post entertaining :)

[Xenocrates]

root_gal, here's your prescription:


800 mg Stelazine (trifluoperazine) - Take twice daily with a meal, until finished. This is a neuroleptic. It'll help stabilize your neurotransmitters' electrolytic imbalance, thus stabilizing your thought processes, leading to more coherent and less dream-like thought (i.e. hallucinatory psychomagnetheria).


400 mg Librium (Chlordiazepoxide) - Take one tablet just before going to sleep, for 3 weeks. This is an Anxiolytic Benzodiazepine (a very safe non barbituate). This will reduce hyper-sensity to anxiety attacks, feelings of acute paranoia and distrust of people. It also aids in the development of peaceful, dreamless sleep.


200 mg Elavil (Tricyclic amitriptyline) - Take twice daily with a meal for two weeks. This will stem the flow of any depression that may onset as a side effect of the neuroleptic medication prescribed in #1 above. If you've developed depression prior to the induction of the neuroleptic, you should inform me your doctor before taking this medication.


Lithium Carbonate - If you experience extreme mood swings, come in and I'll administer an injection with this compound to smooth you out in no time. ;) However, you must ensure that if you have to take this injection, that you not drink too much water or sweat too much on that day. Cool?


Other Precautions: Avoid driving or operating heavy machinery. Some of these drugs may cause drowsiness. Ensure that sedatives are only taken just before sleep.

Take these and call me in the morning. ;)

(That'll be $1,800 for the prescription)

[root_gal]

root_gal, here's your prescription:


800 mg Stelazine (trifluoperazine) - Take twice daily with a meal, until finished. This is a neuroleptic. It'll help stabilize your neurotransmitters' electrolytic imbalance, thus stabilizing your thought processes, leading to more coherent and less dream-like thought (i.e. hallucinatory psychomagnetheria).


400 mg Librium (Chlordiazepoxide) - Take one tablet just before going to sleep, for 3 weeks. This is an Anxiolytic Benzodiazepine (a very safe non barbituate). This will reduce hyper-sensity to anxiety attacks, feelings of acute paranoia and distrust of people. It also aids in the development of peaceful, dreamless sleep.


200 mg Elavil (Tricyclic amitriptyline) - Take twice daily with a meal for two weeks. This will stem the flow of any depression that may onset as a side effect of the neuroleptic medication prescribed in #1 above. If you've developed depression prior to the induction of the neuroleptic, you should inform me your doctor before taking this medication.


Lithium Carbonate - If you experience extreme mood swings, come in and I'll administer an injection with this compound to smooth you out in no time. ;) However, you must ensure that if you have to take this injection, that you not drink too much water or sweat too much on that day. Cool?


Other Precautions: Avoid driving or operating heavy machinery. Some of these drugs may cause drowsiness. Ensure that sedatives are only taken just before sleep.

Take these and call me in the morning. ;)

(That'll be $1,800 for the prescription)

I don't need any fixin':eusa_snoo . This is how I know you are dead. Seems like ramesh and I are the only live (and sane) ones around here. I know you hid a purple alligator somewhere in the tomato. Trying to trick me into coming to Australia with you eh? No sir, it ain't gonna work dead guy. . . :eusa_naug. I'm waaay to smart for that!

[recursion]

MEDIIIIIIIICCCCCC!!!!!!!!! Doc I think you need to double up on those prescriptions

[jamerican]

I don't need any fixin':eusa_snoo . This is how I know you are dead. Seems like ramesh and I are the only live (and sane) ones around here. I know you hid a purple alligator somewhere in the tomato. Trying to trick me into coming to Australia with you eh? No sir, it ain't gonna work dead guy. . . :eusa_naug. I'm waaay to smart for that!
Xeno you need to give here a stronger dose the one u gave nah work

[Xenocrates]

MEDIIIIIIIICCCCCC!!!!!!!!! Doc I think you need to double up on those prescriptions

- QUICK! Gimme 30 ccs of Librium STAT! Jamerican! Hold her arms! Stop her from flailing! :eusa_shif

[smiles]

:icon_arro Xeno
- How do you know that your 'life' isn't simulated? How do you know that you aren't merely a simulation of someone else's wants and desires? - like a robot?

I dont think life is determined necessarily by what creates it. Whether it is natural, simulated or otherwise. If i exist and share the same characteristics as others in my realm then yes i am alive. If I am a mere simulation, yet I function as the normal person and am recognized by others as normal, then I guess that makes me alive. (i'll put some more thought to that). If Dr. Whatshisname one day figures out how to revive the dead... and is able to turn your brain back on and renew one's ability to function, then that spells life in my books as well.

- I disagree. How do you know that you are actively participating in ANY realm of existence? For all I know, you could be an intelligence with the power to trancend into this reality - like angels or demons. When angels visit the earth, men always thought them to be 'alive' in the sense that many people on the board have defined being alive. But are angels and other such supernatural entities truly alive?

I know I am actively participating, because i get responses. I dont know if there exists two realms that share the same characteristics or definitions of life, but I do believe that there are superior realms (Heaven) where beings there have the ability ro trancend into other worlds/realms. I'm yet to have met an angel/demon (I think). I dont exactly walk around asking people to perform certain functions to test whether they are really one of 'us'. If I were seated beside a being now that was not alive (based on previous definitions) there are only so many ways to tell, and it never crossed my mind to check. But if that dude in the cubicle outside my office is an Angel, I'll let you know. Maybe thats what the doctors are checking for when we are told to pee in a cup... ;)

Let's examine your definition. If you check an Angel's pulse, it wouldn't have one. Demons don't have a pulse either. Neither of them breathe. Neither of them reproduce. Neither angels nor demons use the bathroom, and they most certainly don't die. SO, If your consciousness doesn't exist here in this plane of existence, would I still consider you to be alive?

Nope, not alive. But to us, they are spirits. As for my consciousness (which I think is neither anger nor demon) it is not alive.


- So then, since God has no corporeal form in this realm, does that mean that God is dead in this realm?

He is dead in this realm, But Alive in the heavenly realm. I believe He has the power to transcend worlds in many ways and forms, being the Creator of it all. When we die, and portal over to His side, we will share the same form of existence as Him.

Consider this: Does the death of a corporeal form mean that an entity is no longer alive or does it mean that their energy form has merely transformed from one state to another? Do you think that your corpus (i.e. your physical body) defines you as having life? If so, then let me ask you another question:

Losing 'characteristics of life' forces your body in a stagnant state that eventually degrades to another form. at this point of loss, physical energy and spiritual energy is morphed/transformed or portalled to another state. Death as we so call it is pretty much a change of state.

How do you know that your physical body is real? Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is real? Better yet, can you define what it is for something to be real? Do you realise that "reality" is only defined in your brain? Have you ever had a dream that "felt" real? Do you realise that you only realise that the dream wasn't real when you woke up?

Real is having verified existence. Our existence is verified based on the rules and characteristics of a particular state of existence. So to be real as a human one must be verified as sharing specific traits that are held as norm. We verify the realness of a USDollar note by checking for specific 'traits' that have been predefined. It is not possible to answer a question of realness without having a unit of measure, So ask If I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am real based on specific traits. To that my answer would be yes, unless by some individual weakness I have ingnored certain details in my examination - as in when I am dreaming. There are ways to test reality when dreaming, still trying to learn them however. During a dream you rely on your visual verification and assume the experience to be real, that does not make it real however. When you awake and continue your examination further evidence will highlight to you that "Whew.. it was only a dream".

So tell me dear smiles, how do you know that you're not dreaming now? ;)

Good one... I'll let you know when I wake up... ;)
But I must be alive to dream, the question is: Am I in one state dreaming of being in another?

- In human terms? Why assume that humanity is defined by our biological functions? Are you saying that if I managed to transport a human brain with spinal column into a machine which had a perfect simulation of all of the fleshly functions of its original body, that it is no longer human? If I managed to code a human consciousness using software inside a super computer of epic processing power, would that computer be any less human than the original model that I used to create it?

The definition is not an assumption. Regardless of which union is responsible for identifying our traits, the bottom line is, those are our traits and we cant exactly get up and make new rules if we wanted to.

If it works as human on its own without constant attention (and I dont mean like taking care of a baby) Then it would be alive. But if you have to plug it in and change batteries once a week, or push a button for the bladder to empty, then you may want to call it something else.

[smiles]

- QUICK! Gimme 30 ccs of Librium STAT! Jamerican! Hold her arms! Stop her from flailing! :eusa_shif

LOL... Ah Bwoiii:dwl:

[Xenocrates]

YAY! Intellectual discourse!


I dont think life is determined necessarily by what creates it. Whether it is natural, simulated or otherwise.
- So you would agree then with the premise that a sufficiently sophisticated artificial simulation is actually alive?


If i exist and share the same characteristics as others in my realm then yes i am alive. If I am a mere simulation, yet I function as the normal person and am recognized by others as normal, then I guess that makes me alive. (i'll put some more thought to that). If Dr. Whatshisname one day figures out how to revive the dead... and is able to turn your brain back on and renew one's ability to function, then that spells life in my books as well.
- I guess this answers the above question. Some people however, don't believe that a simulation is actually alive. The truth of the matter is, the only reason why people say that is because we've never created a simulation that has is sufficiently sophisticated enough to be equal to a living human being, and thus would not be considered to be "alive". The truth of the matter is that humans can never create a simulation as sophisticated as themselves, since that would require an intellect equivalent to that of our own maker.

However, this position presents a quandry: by the same definition, we humans are not alive either. We are not as sophisticated a being as God and indeed we will never be. So technically, humans are ALSO a simulation. But of what?

A human being is a simulation of God.

A simulation (simulacrum) is a created emanation of the collective being of the simulator. It is similar to, but not quite exactly whatever made it. Therefore, a car is a simulation of human's understanding of transportation, in as much as a robot is an artificial simulation of human intelligence. We understand artificial here to refer to anything man made.

So, if a human being is a simulation, and a robot is a simulation, then logically, if a human can 'feel' alive, then technically, we could create a robot which by some syntatic definition, could also "feel" alive - wouldn't you say? If that's the case, what parameters define being alive?

[Did you say you wanted... moar?]

[Xenocrates]

I know I am actively participating, because i get responses.
- I can get responses from a computer too. However, there's something far more fundamental that happens to know that you're alive. Can you tell me what that is?


Nope, not alive. But to us, they are spirits. As for my consciousness (which I think is neither anger nor demon) it is not alive.
- So what is a spirit if it is not alive?


He is dead in this realm, But Alive in the heavenly realm. I believe He has the power to transcend worlds in many ways and forms, being the Creator of it all. When we die, and portal over to His side, we will share the same form of existence as Him.
- I think there's a conflict of definitions here. What is God exactly? (Notice I said 'what', not 'who').


Losing 'characteristics of life' forces your body in a stagnant state that eventually degrades to another form. at this point of loss, physical energy and spiritual energy is morphed/transformed or portalled to another state. Death as we so call it is pretty much a change of state.
- And a change of state does not = a persistence of life? Isn't it possible to argue that life can exist in any state and in any dimension?


Real is having verified existence. Our existence is verified based on the rules and characteristics of a particular state of existence.
- This is an infinitely circular argument. You can't define rules & characteristics of existence until you can define what existence is. That's like trying to define a word by using the same word in the definition. You follow?


So to be real as a human one must be verified as sharing specific traits that are held as norm.
- Still circular. You can't define "norm", until you can define "existence" until you can define "reality".


We verify the realness of a USDollar note by checking for specific 'traits' that have been predefined.
- The argument has no grounds for solubility. You can't verify that the US dollar is real by using any parameters that haven't been defined yet. Until you can define those parameters, you could be dreaming about that US dollar and it may not be real at all - OR, it could be that you don't have any hands to feel the US dollar, but you can experience it in your mind using appropriately designed electrical signals. This doesn't make the US dollar real. It only makes the experience of having the US dollar appear to be real. You follow me?

[But wait! there's MOAR!]

[Xenocrates]

It is not possible to answer a question of realness without having a unit of measure, So ask If I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am real based on specific traits.
- I don't need to. If I asked you to define what "God" is, you have no other element in the universe to make a basis for your definition because of what God intrinsically is. Similarly, if I ask you to define what is "real", you have to examine the very base component of what is perceived to be real, and how it is that we perceive such a thing to be real.

I'll tell you why:

People who dream while they're awake (schizophrenics) see and experience things that as far as they are concerned, are QUITE real. They can see, smell, touch, taste and FEEL these things! To a schizo, the visions ARE real, but no one else can see them! Here's something for you to consider:

Have you ever had Deja Vous? Have you ever been somewhere or seen something that you thought you'd seen before? Do you know HOW it is that humans develop Deja Vous? No? Read on...


Have you ever had a dream where when you woke up, you don't remember what the dream was about? How about this: Did you know that a Deja Vous is when we experience a dream about something we saw, but only briefly, but our subconscious minds made a post hypnotic suggestion about it, prior to our experiencing it? It's called pre-cognition and it happens purely by chance. So here's the next thing:


Haven't you ever had a dream about something that you thought was SO real, that when you woke up, you had physiological reactions to it? (e.g. heavy breathing, a distinct sense of fear, heart racing, screaming, etc.) Some of these are called nightmares. Some are called Night Terrors. Some people have dreams that are so real, that even when they've long forgotten the details of the dream - they have a difficult time remembering whether what they experienced was a dream or if it happened in reality!

So my dear, I pose the question to you again: How do you know what is real? :icon_mrgr


To that my answer would be yes, unless by some individual weakness I have ingnored certain details in my examination - as in when I am dreaming.
- Do you realise that only RARELY do you have control of the events of your dream? Have you ever seen someone who is in the middle of a dream? They have physiological reactions! They flinch, move their limbs and sometimes talk in their sleep! As far as they're concerned, what they're experiencing is REAL! So it's not a matter of whether or not you ignore anything. An experience is not something that you control. It just happens to you. That doesn't make it any more or less real than those you have in your dreams.

[Come and get some... MOAR!]

[Xenocrates]

There are ways to test reality when dreaming, still trying to learn them however. During a dream you rely on your visual verification and assume the experience to be real, that does not make it real however. When you awake and continue your examination further evidence will highlight to you that "Whew.. it was only a dream". - Tell that to a schizo. Schizos tend to become so paranoid of people, because they often don't know who is real and who is not. That's how BAD a schizo's mind is. Their subconscious and conscious minds are basically the same place. So a schizo would drive to work in the mornings and quite literally see a pink unicorn driving a Honda Civic in the lane next to them - just as real as they would see you or me. The point that I'm making here, is that conscious and subconscious experiences cannot be used as a basis for defining reality.


Good one... I'll let you know when I wake up... ;)
But I must be alive to dream, the question is: Am I in one state dreaming of being in another?
- AAAAH! THAT'S the PENULTIMATE Question my dear. :icon_mrgr Some people have recursive dreams - whereby they dream that they are dreaming. Some people suffer such terrible trauma in their youth, that their experiences become repressed as adults. When they get older, they have a hard time determining whether or not that "bad experience" actually happened! Now can you see what I'm getting at? The mere fact that we have dreams invalidates any possibility of using our experiences to validate reality. Therefore, the definition of reality must be far more basic than that.


The definition is not an assumption. Regardless of which union is responsible for identifying our traits, the bottom line is, those are our traits and we cant exactly get up and make new rules if we wanted to.
- That's not my point. Every rule needs a basis. There has to be a sound, logical progression from one basis to the next. If we are to define what it is to be alive by attaching that definition to being human, then we are automatically implying that nothing that isn't human is alive! You see the danger in such a presupposition?


If it works as human on its own without constant attention (and I dont mean like taking care of a baby) Then it would be alive. But if you have to plug it in and change batteries once a week, or push a button for the bladder to empty, then you may want to call it something else.
- What about invalids and paraplegics? They have no control over their autosomic and motor functions. What about people on life support machines? They have no control over their breathing functions. Does that mean that all these people are not alive?

(Hey guys, don't let just Smiles and I have all the fun! Anyone else can feel free to jump in here.)