The Fallacy of Omnipotence

[Xenocrates]

Ponder these questions and see if you can answer them:

Is there anything that God can't do? If your answer is 'no', then consider these:


Can God create a being which is more powerful than himself?
Could God make a thing so heavy that He couldn't lift it?
Can God cause a problem that He can't fix?
If God doesn't make mistakes and God made people, who actually made the mistake?

Let me know what your answers are.

[smiles]

Can God create a being which is more powerful than himself?
Yes... But why? If he has a plan for it, he will because he can.

Could God make a thing so heavy that He couldn't lift it?
Can God cause a problem that He can't fix?
Can merge these 2 sort of... Because God is God.. the questions almost makes no sense... As God, he can do anything, if he wants at the time to not fix the problem, then so be it, but when he is ready to fix it, then it'll be fixed... but as far as not being able to.. nuh know bout that

If God doesn't make mistakes and God made people, who actually made the mistake?
Its not a mistake, We are not mistakes. People refer to things that happen as mistakes because it is not how they would have done it, or how they think it works best for the world, but the Big Man knows what he is doing.

[Xenocrates]

Can God create a being which is more powerful than himself?
Yes... But why? If he has a plan for it, he will because he can. - But if God created a being more powerful than himself, would he still be Omnipotent?

Can merge these 2 sort of... Because God is God.. the questions almost makes no sense... As God, he can do anything, if he wants at the time to not fix the problem, then so be it, but when he is ready to fix it, then it'll be fixed... but as far as not being able to.. nuh know bout that. - Are you sure that God can even do something that exceeds his own capacity? Isn't that a logical fallacy?

Its not a mistake, We are not mistakes. People refer to things that happen as mistakes because it is not how they would have done it, or how they think it works best for the world, but the Big Man knows what he is doing. - Good answer. :eusa_clap

[smiles]

But if God created a being more powerful than himself, would he still be Omnipotent?
The magic is there is more to God than just power... Power is not all that makes Him God. But to play with your question: lets say God = G, and he creates G+1, he then knows of this extra unit of power that he can later absorb into himself...

or

Maybe the term God is not stationary.. maybe the Godness is constantly trasnfered to the most supreme being at the time, as God applies any upgrades

or

Maybe there is not G+1... G is the biggest number existable

mi nuh know.. leave me alone!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure that God can even do something that exceeds his own capacity? Isn't that a logical fallacy?
There is no 'capacity'

[Xenocrates]

The magic is there is more to God than just power... Power is not all that makes Him God. - Actually, it is. :icon_neut

lets say God = G, and he creates G+1, he then knows of this extra unit of power that he can later absorb into himself... - But isn't God potentially everything that could possibly exist at the same time? Isn't everything other than God a derivative of his essence? If that were so, how would it be plausible that he is potentially more than what he already is? Are you saying that God transcends even the first law of thermodynamics?

Maybe the term God is not stationary.. maybe the Godness is constantly trasnfered to the most supreme being at the time, as God applies any upgrades - But why would God upgrade? Isn't he Perfect?

Maybe there is not G+1... G is the biggest number existable - 'existable'? Don't you mean 'possible'? http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/lol.gif

mi nuh know.. leave me alone!!!!!!!!! - :rotflm: :dwl:

There is no 'capacity' - So what is there?

[ramesh]

Can God create a being which is more powerful than himself? IF God is Omnipotent then He cannot make something more Omnipotent, because that would render Him second place. My surmise this creation would actually be an extension of himself. Anything created by a being using materials he himself created is by definition an extension of that being.

Could God make a thing so heavy that He couldn't lift it? Being Omnipotent, this would also be an impossibility. If He couldn't that would in effect disprove His claim (if He made any)

Can God cause a problem that He can't fix? Also an impossibility by the same token.

If God doesn't make mistakes and God made people, who actually made the mistake? Mistakes cannot be made by an Omnipotent being for the same reason. Xeno, I once gave you the following three possible options about God:


1. God is all-knowing. Therefore He knew that Lucifer would sin. He knew that people would sin. He knew that, despite His warnings, Adam and Eve would eat the fruit from the forbidden tree and that His Son would be sacrificed and it was either not in His power to change or that was His Plan all along.

2. God is NOT all-knowing and all of what happened to now and perhaps in the future is not fully known to Him and He only intervenes when He feels it is necessary to further His plan.

3. God is only an observer, not a participant.

[smiles]

- But isn't God potentially everything that could possibly exist at the same time? Isn't everything other than God a derivative of his essence? If that were so, how would it be plausible that he is potentially more than what he already is? Are you saying that God transcends even the first law of thermodynamics?
- But why would God upgrade? Isn't he Perfect?
I think the problem lies with trying to define God with theories made up by man. men can only concieve the minority of all that exists around them. maybe if we could 'think' God we would be God. There is no limit, capacity, problem, potential as far as it is being applied to God. We say omnipotent and in our minds that is the easiest way to define how we view the power of this supreme being. It is a definition that comes closest to embodying what God is, but by no means is it the most accurate.
Theories are just theories. Words are just words. Its all man-made. God did not send us down here with a dictionary to live by (unless you want to consider the Bible). You can break down every theory conjured up by man and find fault with it, because We are not 'omnipotent' 'omnicient' or 'omnipresent' - those three words 'out-define' us, and we will never know what it is to truly be those things.

- 'existable'? Don't you mean 'possible'? NO, i meant existable... stop fixing my posts 'n word'!

[recursion]

There is no limit, capacity, problem, potential as far as it is being applied to God. We say omnipotent and in our minds that is the easiest way to define how we view the power of this supreme being. It is a definition that comes closest to embodying what God is, but by no means is it the most accurate.
Theories are just theories. Words are just words. Its all man-made. God did not send us down here with a dictionary to live by (unless you want to consider the Bible). You can break down every theory conjured up by man and find fault with it, because We are not 'omnipotent' 'omnicient' or 'omnipresent' - those three words 'out-define' us, and we will never know what it is to truly be those things.


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The above seal certifies this post as the best answer to the
original question quoted.
This certification is non-transferrable, and only applies to the
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All Rights Reserved.



.....will be pwned by xeno in 10,9,8,7,6..

[smiles]

Why haven't they closed this post yet?

[ramesh]

We need MOAR!!

[smiles]

But my post already got the R.I.P stamp...

wait.. did Recursion bury my post.... PUNK!!!:thumbsdown:

[Xenocrates]

IF God is Omnipotent then He cannot make something more Omnipotent, because that would render Him second place. - How would God being in second place be a bad thing?

My surmise this creation would actually be an extension of himself.Anything created by a being using materials he himself created is by definition an extension of that being. - The word you're looking for is "emanation". God emanates reality. Technically God doesn't create anything. Everything that exists once existed as energy. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed (Smiles, this is the first law of thermodynamics), then everything always existed, just in a different form. Since God is pure quantum energy, all that he did was to change the properties of small portions of his own energy so that it descends from a pure potential state to a pure actual state.

God is pure potentiality. He is everything and nothing at the same time. Thus, to say that creation is an extension of God, suggests that he is adding material property to himself. Alas, I digress, I almost gave away the answer to this conundrum... :eusa_shif

Thus, the question still remains: If God is omnipotent, why can't God create a being more powerful than himself? Doesn't that fly in the face of what we understand by Omnipotence?

[MOAR!]

[recursion]

Thus, the question still remains: If God is omnipotent, why can't God create a being more powerful than himself? Doesn't that fly in the face of what we understand by Omnipotence?


[MOAR!]

If I should use your hypothesis that GOD is purely quantum energy, then a being more powerful than him would require more energy than he has at his disposal.

Xeno said it GOD, not me..

[Xenocrates]

.....will be pwned by xeno in 10,9,8,7,6..
...5, 4, 3, 2... [Launch]

I think the problem lies with trying to define God with theories made up by man. [M]en can only concieve the minority of all that exists around them. - Nope! In actuality, men can concieve of any quantum possibility. That's how we're able to conceive of the idea that some God exists. Just because we're mortal doesn't mean that our thoughts can't transcend every possibility. Have you ever heard of the scientific explanation for the existence of God? It's based on quantum physics, and it's colloquially known as "M" theory (there's some Google homework 4 ya). Read up on that, report back to me at 2100 hours and tell me why your posit is categorically false.

We say omnipotent and in our minds that is the easiest way to define how we view the power of this supreme being. It is a definition that comes closest to embodying what God is, but by no means is it the most accurate. - How about saying that God is an infinite singularity? That's a far more accurate description than saying that God is Omnipotent. Wouldn't you agree? Don't know what an infinite singularity is? Then that would mean that you pulled your first response out of your shiny new posterior. :p

God did not send us down here with a dictionary to live by... - We don't need one. God made men to think like He does. That's all we need. If we had some cosmic dictionary to live by, we would not have the capacity to develop new technology or social constructs - or even to determine through proof-by-induction why some God must exist.

...and we will never know what it is to truly be those things. - Actually we do. When you've read up about the 10 dimensions of reality, you'll see a perfectly elegant description of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence all compacted in a 10 level hierarchial structure of the space/time continuum. You still haven't addressed why the traditional concept of Omnipotence is fallacious. It's actually quite simple, and you almost hit the nail on the head earlier when you said that "G" is the biggest possible number. You were SO close there. ;)

NO, i meant existable... stop fixing my posts 'n word'! - 'Existential' is a word. 'Existence' is a word. 'Existable' however, is not a word. If you're going to change languages on me, at least let me know so that I can match it accordingly. Dictionary for the win? :p Spricht de taal?

Why haven't they closed this post thread yet? - Because your statements were wrong. Your Bill Statement is as follows:

Corrected 'existible' - $250k
Corrected 'post' as 'thread' - $70k
Shown that you've completely sidestepped the target problem - $527k
Lawsuit against recursion for illegally appropriating my certification stamp - $727k
Legal fees: $347.4k
Administrative fees: $31k
pWnage fees: $34k

Total: $1,986,400 + GCT

However, I'm willing to waive all these fees if you're willing to tell me why the concept of omnipotence is fallacious instead of telling me that people are too stupid to get anything right. Failing which, you may need BCK to loan you one of his security trucks for the delivery of my payment.

I hope you married a rich husband.

Xeno http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Smilies/hawhaw.gif Smiles
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/Cat_slave_PWNED.gif
For GREAT JUSTICE!

[recursion]

So will you waive mine since I got it?

[Xenocrates]

If I should use your hypothesis that GOD is purely quantum energy, then a being more powerful than him would require more energy than he has at his disposal.

Xeno said it GOD, not me.. - Allow me to demonstrate something VERY simple here:

Quantum Energy here literally refers to the smallest possible (not existable, Smiles, pay attention) particle of energy that exists in the universe. Quantum comes from the neuter tense of the latin word quantus, which means 'of how much'.

God cannot be made of complex forms of energy. That's like saying that we use arches to build buildings or engines to build cars. Arches are made of blocks and blocks are made of sand. Engines are made of several types of metal alloys, galvonized rubber and steel. Furthermore, no building is made entirely of arches and you car cannot be made entirely of engines. If God is indeed the universal archiect, then whatever form he is in as his default state, must be conversant with any quantum possibility. You follow?

Therefore, if God can shape his energy into ANYTHING that could possibly exist, then it logically follows that such an energy form MUST be of the smallest, simplest possible particle of energy; hence the term Quantum Energy.

(Quantum Physics on the other hand is a whole different ballgame. That has to do with what makes the physics of this universe work and why it works in that specific way. But that's for another thread. :icon_mrgr)

So will you waive mine since I got it?
- Talk to my lawyer. That's between him and Smiles. ;)

[recursion]

- Allow me to demonstrate something VERY simple here:

Quantum Energy here literally refers to the smallest possible (not existable, Smiles, pay attention) particle of energy that exists in the universe. Quantum comes from the neuter tense of the latin word quantus, which means 'of how much'.

God cannot be made of complex forms of energy. That's like saying that we use arches to build buildings or engines to build cars. Arches are made of blocks and blocks are made of sand. Engines are made of several types of metal alloys, galvonized rubber and steel. Furthermore, no building is made entirely of arches and you car cannot be made entirely of engines. If God is indeed the universal archiect, then whatever form he is in as his default state, must be conversant with any quantum possibility. You follow?

Therefore, if God can shape his energy into ANYTHING that could possibly exist, then it logically follows that such an energy form MUST be of the smallest, simplest possible particle of energy; hence the term Quantum Energy.

(Quantum Physics on the other hand is a whole different ballgame. That has to do with what makes the physics of this universe work and why it works in that specific way. But that's for another thread. :icon_mrgr)


- Talk to my lawyer. That's between him and Smiles. ;)


Could you PM me the memo you got from GOD explaining his composition to you. While me might theorize our buts off I still find it hard to believe that humans can truly fathom GOD, 'cept by divine revelation of course.

[Xenocrates]

Could you PM me the memo you got from GOD explaining his composition to you. While me might theorize our buts off I still find it hard to believe that humans can truly fathom GOD, 'cept by divine revelation of course. - Fathoming the dimensions of God is pointless, since God, by his nature, has no dimensions. Fathoming God's purpose however is far simpler. People believe that God is unfathomable because of what they read (and misinterpret) in the Bible. But just because something is infinite doesn't mean that you can't recognize infinity. That's the same thing as saying that the world is flat because we can't see around corners. It's a backward and single-plane method of thinking. Because most people think that way, religious zealots tend to use this failure in cognitive thinking to convert such gullible people into all sorts of dangerous religious cults.

Similarly, you can't say that thinking about the philosophy of such a thing is pointless the instant your head starts to hurt. :p Your brain hurts when it records so much new information that it actually needs to produce new tissue to facilitate the additional processing required. Similarly, your muscles hurt when you've burned up more energy than the tissue cells therein can hold. That's why exercising your muscles makes bigger muscles, and why exercizing your cognitive capacity makes you smarter. ;)

If you're worried about committing blasphemy, read this (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=126166&postcount=20). People base all kinds of absurd "don't you dare"'s on their failure to comprehend what are otherwise very simple things.

I'm still waiting on an answer to my question.

-[Edit]-
About that memo, read up on M or String theory and report back to me at 2100 CST. Or, you can ask Ramesh to explain it to you. ;)

[recursion]

- Fathoming the dimensions of God is pointless, since God, by his nature, has no dimensions. Fathoming God's purpose however is far simpler. People believe that God is unfathomable because of what they read (and misinterpret) in the Bible. But just because something is infinite doesn't mean that you can't recognize infinity. That's the same thing as saying that the world is flat because we can't see around corners. It's a backward and single-plane method of thinking. Because most people think that way, religious zealots tend to use this failure in cognitive thinking to convert such gullible people into all sorts of dangerous religious cults.

Similarly, you can't say that thinking about the philosophy of such a thing is pointless the instant your head starts to hurt. :p Your brain hurts when it records so much new information that it actually needs to produce new tissue to facilitate the additional processing required. Similarly, your muscles hurt when you've burned up more energy than the tissue cells therein can hold. That's why exercising your muscles makes bigger muscles, and why exercizing your cognitive capacity makes you smarter. ;)

If you're worried about committing blasphemy, read this (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=126166&postcount=20). People base all kinds of absurd "don't you dare"'s on their failure to comprehend what are otherwise very simple things.

I'm still waiting on an answer to my question.

Tell me where I said thinking about the philosophy is pointless, cuz I must've missed it. Your posts do not appear to be what you think to be the case, but what you deem to be fact.

Alas, I agree that my brain does need some exercise.




PS, I'm still waiting on the memo from GOD.

-[Edit]-
Ok, I'll read up on M or String theory and report back to you sir.

[ramesh]

tell me why the concept of omnipotence is fallaciousOmnipotence indicates control over everything. If God controlled everything, there cannot be Free Will. :icon_mrgr

About that memo, read up on M or String theory and report back to me at 2100 CST. Or, you can ask Ramesh to explain it to you. ;)You think I know that much about the subject? :cool:

[Xenocrates]

PS, I'm still waiting on the memo from GOD. - How can you wait on a memo from a being you can't prove exists except through philosophy and theory, confirming the nature of said being through philosophy and theory? Isn't that a tad circularly redundant? That's like accepting a cheque on a bank account that doesn't exist or putting the cart before the horse, or marrying a woman based on a photo of her alone.

Omnipotence indicates control over everything. If God controlled everything, there cannot be Free Will. :icon_mrgr
- Well, yeah - that's for those who still believe in free will. But the answer was very closely alluded to in Smiles' response about G being the largest number.

The reason why I'm asking this question is because is a very common strategy atheists use to confuse believers. Any takers?

[Xenocrates]

No takers?

Ok.

The answer is simple: Omnipotence embodies everything that God could possibly create, which is infinite, since God is pure potentiality. If God is infinite, then the very premise of God creating another infinity greater than the existing one is the same thing as saying that there exists some 0 that is greater than 0. It's recursively redundant. Nothing is greater than infinity, since infinity is everything and nothing simultaneously.

A simpler explanation is that infinity is not finite. (sounds circular right?) You can create a greater finite thing than some other finite thing since they both have discreet values. But infinity is endless and indiscreet. You can't make a comparison of greater or lesser than between two indiscreet values, because there's nothing to compare. It is therefore redundant to say that there could possibly exist some infinity that is greater than another. Infinity is just that; infinity. There's nothing greater (or lesser) than infinity.

Concordantly, God cannot create a greater being than himself since God is by virtue of being God already infinite. Therefore you can't disprove God's omnipotence. The fallacy lies in the attempt to disprove omnipotence, not in the definition of omnipotence itself. There's nothing wrong with the original definition. It's fine just as it is. Thus all atheists using this argument to suggest that God can't possibly exist (by attempting to disprove his omnipotence) are desperately clutching at straws. Retards.

Was that really so hard? :eusa_thin

[tiffany]

i asked a lady at church if God can create a being greater than Himself. she said no, as the creation can't be greater than the Creator..... your answer goes more in depth and makes more sense.

[Bling]

Your posts do not appear to be what you think to be the case, but what you deem to be fact.

PS, I'm still waiting on the memo from GOD.

The only possible conclusion would be that Xeno=GOD :icon_lol:

simpler explanation is that infinity is not finite. (sounds circular right?) You can create a greater finite thing than some other finite thing since they both have discreet values. But infinity is endless and indiscreet. You can't make a comparison of greater or lesser than between two indiscreet values

infinity + 10 = infinity
infinity/infinity ≠ 1
ie
infinity ≠ infinity
:eusa_thin

[recursion]

The only possible conclusion would be that Xeno=GOD :icon_lol:



He did mention foreseeing the "perfection" of cloning within the next 50 yrs.
That's a lame one though. Here's a prediction for you 9.86 next golden league race (A. Pow.)....WR the next


infinity + 10 = infinity
infinity/infinity ≠ 1
ie
infinity ≠ infinity
:eusa_thin

Ininity Rocks....so does pi.......I sense there's a connection. God's love is like a circle. A circle big and round and when you see a circle no ending can be found. --> 1 John 4:7 God is Love ---> hmmmm.. Circle --> Pi :icon_idea