Luck or Providence?

[Bahama Mama]

When good fortune is visited upon persons, they label it as luck or providence.
Luck being random and statistically applicable to everyone, while providence is ordered and applicable to those that have 'divine' favour. Which do you believe in? Is there no such thing as either luck or providence? Can they both be mutually inclusive of each other?

[silentburn]

I think there is room for both luck and providence. For instance, suppose one is just playing a simple card game with a group of friends and one person wins two times in a row, that, I would consider luck.

In regards to more important things in life, providence certainly takes precedence. A lot of things that do happen to us in life are due to our background and socialization. Providence does not occur independently in most cases. I think socialization is extremely important as to how a person will turn out; remember, our characters will influence greatly the situations we find our selves in later in life.

Some people are just so motivated though, no matter their background or past they don't stop till they succeed. Genes also play a role. Some family traits are passed down from generation to generation through learned behavior or genetic inclination

I must admit though, that some people just seem to be dealt hard blows throughout their entire life while others experience endless success for no apparent reason.

I have thought about the issue of providence hard and long and it is becoming clearer to me that our fathers and forefathers actually have a great influence on how we ourselves turn out. The events that also happen to us during childhood also plays major roles in regard to the type of situations we will attract to ourselves.

Yea somethings appear to be extremely random, at times it seems that it is only divine intervention or luck that could create certain circumstances and I do believe that in some situations there is definitely some external strategizing. If we however really looked on situations objectively we would see that most things were written on the wall from birth. Its like a self fulfilling prophecy.

In most cases the course can be changed. ;) Its just that it will be hard. Obviously the people who will suffer are those who got insufficient and faulty socialization, or disadvantageous genes.

I reiterate change is very possible. Its just so flipping hard though.

Are you understanding my wavelength Bahama Mama? :eusa_thin

EDIT
I thought it important to include cases which defy the odds.
In one instance you have people who have been used, abused and neglected mostly due to their own character flaws, they try to change, but it seems to be of no use. They give up and their life is just wasting away until one day a partner comes into their lives and slowly but surely, helps to change their prospects till eventually when it comes down to the tape it turns out that they have led a successful, fulfilling and an almost perfect life.

In the other instance you have people who have been socialized correctly, they are congenial, everyone loves them, they handle problems with patience and usually they overcome, they practice temperance in all areas of their lives. Suddenly it happens, the whole family is blindsided by a 18 wheeler on a quiet Sunday evening coming home from a walk along the seashore. Those who do manage to survive are paralyzed and will remain vegetables for life.

Life is exciting, isn't it? :icon_eek:

[Xenocrates]

Silentburn, if you believe in a God, then your postulate is grossly inaccurate.

There is no such thing as luck. Everything that happens, happened exactly as it should, when it should, to whom it should and how it had. To speculate that there is such a thing as "luck" is to insinuate that we live in a chaotic universe. If we believe in a perfect God then this is impossible, since a perfect God would have created a functionally perfect universe. As such, the concept of luck is a subset of "Chaos", which is as a result of our inability to perceive the wholeness of the universe. Every effect has a cause and every cause has an effect. Therefore, observe the following lemmas on existentialism:

Lemma #1: Chaos is a description of the failure of human perception to enumerate every cause to a given effect.


Lemma #2: Luck is another word for beneficial chaos. The observer uses the word "luck" to indicate that they don't know all of the causations to their beneficial state. Luck is nothing more than when opportunity meets preparation.


Lemma #3: Providence describes the result of beneficial causality - which if not thoroughly understood, will be perceived as "luck". The observer uses the word "providence" to acknowledge that there is at least one cause to their beneficial state, even if they don't fully understand it. Therefore, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive events.


Lemma #4: Concordantly, Providence is merely the beneficial subset of every possible occurrence. The other occurrences would be described as "Misfortune", which is the exact opposite, but functional equivalent of Providence.


Read more here (http://www.caribyard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3112).
-[QED]

[silentburn]

So if one wins a simple card game would you consider it a planned event?

I only mentioned the word luck in the first sentence, the rest of the post was spent discussing providence. I made no direct mention of God but if you read carefully you will see that He's tucked in the fabric of my post.

Yea but seriously, you really think the big man himself plans who's going to win a friendly card game on a Sunday evening? :eusa_thin

[Xenocrates]

You really think that he wouldn't? To suggest otherwise is to imply that God is not in total control of the universe. If that were not the case, then our definition of God is fatally flawed and that would mean that God does not exist.

[recursion]

You really think that he wouldn't? To suggest otherwise is to imply that God is not in total control of the universe. If that were not the case, then our definition of God is fatally flawed and that would mean that God does not exist.

I think it would imply that the God that you defined does not exist. No?

[Xenocrates]

If God exists, then my definition of God would be the most accurate (because it makes the most sense). How would you define God?

[recursion]

If God exists, then my definition of God would be the most accurate (because it makes the most sense). How would you define God?

Sense in whose mind? The problem is you are not God. What makes something sensible? That which you deem as nonsense from your 4 dimensional view-point might be sensible in the greater scheme of things.

About defining God, I'll leave that alone. I could try my best but debating is not my strength, Math is......... and my finite mind could never come close to comprehending FULLY that which is GOD....

And I would rather not argue with you...lest you PWN me :icon_mrgr

Plus
Whereas I might see a simple 3-dimensional reality, You see a three dimensional reality in flux. You see a world that is constantly changing states. It's never fixed. In the 5th dimension, you see a problem's existing state (3rd dimension), the state that it will become (4th dimension) and many of the possible states that it could alternatively become and their relation to the existing state (5th dimension). You tend to look at a thing from angles aside from the default ones given to you in the third dimension.

Where this becomes fun is when you start to make what appear to be profound connections that tie multiple ends of an idea together in ways most people fail to see. We find this amusing because it makes profound sense in a new way. That's because You're thinking in the 5th, while we're still thinking in the third

[Xenocrates]

You shouldn't let my confidence in what I think thwart your attempt to prove me wrong. You should never assume that someone who can string an argument together is automatically right. Otherwise, you could be taken advantage of by "smart" people who are intellectually dishonest. How else are you gonna know if I'm just pulling the wool over your eyes if you're not willing to challenge what I think? Just cuz I said so, it doesn't mean that it is so. C'mon, take your best shot. Define God.

[silentburn]

Hasn't this been discussed already? I guess we'll never be able to stop talking about certain topics.

I still see a problem with the view that God has created and caused sin to flourish. That's like saying Satan doesn't exist. I'm sure God can foresee sin, but that doesn't mean he necessarily had to be the one who directly created it.

This whole view that we have absolutely no control over whether we choose right or wrong doesn't make sense. It would be like God creating a mirror just to look at himself. I think it would be more likely for God to create something which is more dynamic, not static.

Did I just go off on a tangent? :icon_eek:

[Xenocrates]

Actually, we've discussed other aspects of it. However, if you can define God, then you'll be able to see my rationale.

[silentburn]

Ok here's a definition. God is all knowing, all powerful and omnipresent.

I could also say God is love but then that would send us down another path we have also visited on other occasions.

Did you take in my last post in its entirety? I added some other issues after editing.

[Xenocrates]

Well your definition is correct. So it shouldn't be an issue to see why I say that luck doesn't exist. There's a curious thing about people tho: If they've been at the business end of enough providential occurrences, they'll think that they're "lucky" people. I prefer to say that they've been "chosen" or "blessed", cuz the big dude is still running the show. You follow me? On the other hand, if people have had equal distributions of providence and misfortune, they tend to see the glass as only half full, and say that they're unlucky. Strange, huh?

[recursion]

You shouldn't let my confidence in what I think thwart your attempt to prove me wrong. You should never assume that someone who can string an argument together is automatically right. Otherwise, you could be taken advantage of by "smart" people who are intellectually dishonest. How else are you gonna know if I'm just pulling the wool over your eyes if you're not willing to challenge what I think? Just cuz I said so, it doesn't mean that it is so. C'mon, take your best shot. Define God.

GOD IS .

[silentburn]

Let me bring this point up again.

God has absolute control over the show, that is a given. Does having control mean He has to manually control every single direction in which the wind blows?

Here's a scenario. A parent has a young child, child decides to run and frolic on a wet slippery surface. Parent says ''do not run you will fall'', child still disobeys, parent says ''do not run'' child still runs on wet surface. Eventually the child slips and cuts up his knee.

The parent had control over the situation, the parent could have grabbed the child, put on a few slaps and tell him to sit the hell down and keep quiet. The parent was however still in control even though the child disobeyed. The parent knew the possible outcomes of situation but still allowed the child to continue in his folly so that a lesson could be learned. The child had a choice to obey or disobey even though the parent could have forced control.

Similarly, a God who is all powerful and all knowing does not have to disallow choice. Our choice does not affect God one way or the other, He is still all knowing and He's still all powerful with or without His subjects having choice.

[Bahama Mama]

I started this thread, because some folks believe that they are more favoured for good fortune than those that don't subscribe to religion. It seems audacious to me.

[Xenocrates]

To say that God allows choice is the same thing as saying that God does not control everything - meaning every, minute, detail.

:icon_arro BM

Those people are morons.

[silentburn]

To say that God allows choice is the same thing as saying that God does not control everything - meaning every, minute, detail.


How does choice negate control if the person allowing the choice already knows the outcome?

In the parent/child scenario in my last post the parent had control over the child even though the child was allowed to continue on his slippery path. The child's choice did not affect the parent's control. The parent knew the outcome so choice was allowed.

[Xenocrates]

How does choice negate control if the person allowing the choice already knows the outcome? - Because choice, if it existed, is in actuality a transfer of control to the entity making the choice. This means that at that specific moment in time, God is not in control of the event. Furthermore, it is a conflicting argument to say that God knows the outcome if he's not in control of the event. He knows the outcome because he's in control of the event at EVERY point. He never relinquishes control at any point in time - ever. That's what we mean when we say that God is all powerful. ;)

In the parent/child scenario in my last post the parent had control over the child even though the child was allowed to continue on his slippery path. The child's choice did not affect the parent's control. The parent knew the outcome so choice was allowed. - You can't compare parents and God. God isn't human. Furthermore, parents have very limited control over their children. This is why Christianity is a flawed religion. This anthropomorphic belief system is why so many people turn away from it.

[silentburn]

I still disagree. Choice does not negate Control.

A authoritative entity can give a person 2 choices. The subject can either choose to do A or B. Is control lost because a choice is given? Keep in mind that that the choices are mutually exclusive, meaning its either one or the other. There is no option C.

God is still in control even if He allows choice because He is the one who sets up the options. Isn't that straight forward?


This question below is the only way in which the existence of choice can be disproved.
Can an Entity give choice if the said Entity already knows the option that the subject will choose? Would it still be choice since the outcome is already known?

[Xenocrates]

God is still in control even if He allows choice because He is the one who sets up the options. Isn't that straight forward? - No. Choice is execution of control. If God engineered his creature to make choices that He already knew they would make, then the creature is not choosing. It is merely following a predefined pattern of execution - like a computer program.

If God exercises absolute control, then choice does not exist. We are merely finite automata in a mechanical universe. We humans only created the idea of choice because we believe in the existence of chaos. We believe in the existence of chaos because we can't perceive all of the variables that predicate every cause and effect. However, just because we can't see our own programming, it doesn't mean that we actually choose to do anything. We're not making choices. We're merely reacting to our environment as how we've been pre-programmed to.

[silentburn]

Choice does not necessarily translate into the execution of control. If choice itself is a metered entity then whatever control exudes from it would only be limited control. God has absolute control so its not going to phase Him one way or the other. He can bend things the way he wants it. Being given an option does not mean one has control.

I agree however that the notion of choice gets a little shaky when considered in terms of a Being who is all knowing. You do realize however that if there is no choice then the bible would basically be a lie. Right?

Forget all the other stuff about choice being the execution of control. That statement is certainly not true in all circumstances. The only point which you really have that may discount choice is the one below.

Is it really totally impossible for choice to exist on the same plane as omniscience?

[Xenocrates]

Being given an option does not mean one has control. - That's exactly my point.

You do realize however that if there is no choice then the bible would basically be a lie. Right? - Wrong. You obviously don't know your Bible well enough:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

- There are hundreds of other passages like this in the Bible - all of which explicitly dictates that an omniscient God automatically precludes any notion of choice. Nobody chooses to do anything. God has already forewritten your fate. You need to do more Bible study, son. No joke ting now. :icon_neut

Is it really totally impossible for choice to exist on the same plane as omniscience? - The concept of choice is a human invention designed to describe a lack of knowledge about the totality of cause and effect that leads to a specific circumstance. The only reason why you're having trouble with this is that you're afraid to face the reality that you are not in control of your destiny.

This is why the Bible teaches:

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.

That passage alone automatically insinuates that your daily doings are not by choice, but by the permissive will of God. Again, I re-iterate my point:

The concept of choice is a human invention designed to describe a lack of knowledge about the totality of cause and effect that leads to a specific circumstance. God is the supreme ruler, architect and controller of the universe in every conceivable facet thereof. Nothing you do is by chance, by luck or by choice. To suggest such a thing is the same as to suggest that God does not exist.

There is no choice, no chaos, no luck and no chance. The universe always unfolds exactly as it should.

[nuhsenutten]

That passage alone automatically insinuates that your daily doings are not by choice, but by the permissive will of God. Again, I re-iterate my point:

The concept of choice is a human invention designed to describe a lack of knowledge about the totality of cause and effect that leads to a specific circumstance. God is the supreme ruler, architect and controller of the universe in every conceivable facet thereof. Nothing you do is by chance, by luck or by choice. To suggest such a thing is the same as to suggest that God does not exist.

There is no choice, no chaos, no luck and no chance. The universe always unfolds exactly as it should.

so therefore we are God's SIMS

:eusa_thin:icon_eek:

[Xenocrates]

Pretty much. That's why games like "The Sims" and "SimCity" are called "God Simulators" or "God Sims" for short.

[silentburn]

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29; NIV
- There are hundreds of other passages like this in the Bible - all of which explicitly dictates that an omniscient God automatically precludes any notion of choice. Nobody chooses to do anything. God has already forewritten your fate. You need to do more Bible study, son. No joke ting now. :icon_neut


Deuteronomy 30:19 NIV
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

There are also hundreds of text like the one above that insinuates the existence of choice. I haven't even touched the new testament yet. I guess you are going to say that some parts of the bible have been affected by human emotion. If the bible has been affected by human flaws then ALL of the bible has been tainted, you can't take out one part of the bible and say its absolute fact and then you discount one part as being human invention.

- The concept of choice is a human invention designed to describe a lack of knowledge about the totality of cause and effect that leads to a specific circumstance. The only reason why you're having trouble with this is that you're afraid to face the reality that you are not in control of your destiny.


Choice is a concept built into us from birth its not a human invention that has evolved over the years. The very first humans had a choice. We were born with the ability to choose. God gave us that functionality, whether it a limited feature or just a simulation to help us through life doesn't matter. God has given choice.

As I said before an Entity which gives His subjects choice does not loose control of said subject. God can terminate the game at any time He wants. How is He loosing control? I fail to see that particular point.

I will repeat myself. The only argument you have here is the question of whether choice can exist on the same plain as omniscience.

All the other arguments such as choice being a ''transfer of control'' are simply just Wordplay. If God has us cornered in a cage and it is impossible to escape then How does he loose control if we are given the choice to move from one side of the cage to the other side? Please explain that to me. God can terminate us at absolutely any point he wants. He has absolute control, nothing, nothing can take that control from HIM. Doesn't make sense for one to try and put God in simple little equations and place conditions on Him. He has absolute control.

We have to play through the game of life to the end. We have a role to play in determining whether we loose that game or not. It doesn't matter whether we have any control over the rules of the game. We still have to play the game no matter what, even if we commit suicide we are still in the game till the very end, we cannot quit. We don't have control, but we can use our discretion(choice) to trek our way around the game map till we reach the end of the game.

[Xenocrates]

Silentburn, you're in denial. Just relax. :D This is a simple issue of common sense:

Absolute Control doesn't mean 99.999999999% control; it means 100% (hence the word 'absolute'). If God has absolute control (omnipotence), then you have none. To say that you choose, assumes that you control the outcome to some degree, however small, even 0.000000001%, which contradicts the definition of God's omnipotence. Therefore if God controls, choice does not exist. If you control, then God does not exist. Omnipotence and Choice cannot co-exist in the same universe. The two ideas are diametrically opposed to each other because their definitions contradict each other. So, let's make this reeeeally simple:

If God controls, I don't control. If I control (irrespective of how tiny my control radius is) then God doesn't control. Only one of them must be true for either definition to work. Therefore if you believe that God exists, then you can't believe in choice. It's that simple.

[silentburn]

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the concept of choice derived to man is on a different plane from absolute control? Mankind is certainly not on the same level/dimension/plane as God. The little choices that we make in our little reality has really no effect on who God is.


It is important for us to note that choice is also not a synonym for control. They are two different concepts. The relationship between choice and control when possessed by opposing entities is not necessarily inversed in all cases. They are not really true synonyms and they are certainly not opposites.


I reiterate again, God is not tied down to our realm. We are however tied down, we cannot move unless God says so. I still don't see how God loses control if we can only move if He allows it.


Originally posted by Xenocrates
If God controls, I don't control. If I control (irrespective of how tiny my control radius is) then God doesn't control. Only one of them must be true for either definition to work. Therefore if you believe that God exists, then you can't believe in choice. It's that simple.

The control that God has and the control that humans exhibit are too different things. The scale on which God exhibits control is far more superior to that of humans. Obviously God's control encapsulates everything, every possible permutation. If we have control, our control has already been calculated and taken into consideration so it doesn't really matter to God in the long run.

[ramesh]

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the concept of choice derived to man is on a different plane from absolute control? Mankind is certainly not on the same level/dimension/plane as God.
.........

I still don't see how God loses control if we can only move if He allows it.


FIXED at no charge. No bill will be mailed. :D

[silentburn]

FIXED at no charge. No bill will be mailed. :D

Oh, thanks. :eusa_shif

[Xenocrates]

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the concept of choice derived to man is on a different plane from absolute control?. - The concept of choice wasn't derived to man. It was derived by man.

Mankind is certainly not on the same level/dimension/plane as God. The little choices that we make in our little reality has really no effect on who God is. - Irrelevant. God controls all planes of existence.

It is important for us to note that choice is also not a synonym for control. They are two different concepts. The relationship between choice and control when possessed by opposing entities is not necessarily inversed in all cases. They are not really true synonyms and they are certainly not opposites. - To choose is to effect change which is synonymous with control.

I reiterate again, God is not tied down to our realm. - Which is why I'm right. ;)

We are however tied down, we cannot move unless God says so. - Again, exactly why I'm right. ;)

I still don't see how God loses control if we can only move if He allows it. - Because every facet of your existence is a part of His design. Therefore, everything you do is predicated by God's control, not yours.

The control that God has and the control that humans exhibit are too different things. The scale on which God exhibits control is far more superior to that of humans. - Humans don't exhibit any control if everything they do was already pre-scripted by God.

Obviously God's control encapsulates everything, every possible permutation. - Which is again, why we have no control. ;)

If we have control, our control has already been calculated and taken into consideration - Which is why it is only an illusion. Choice is an illusion of control. ;)

...so it doesn't really matter to God in the long run. - Everything matters to God irrespective of the length of the run. That's why we define him as being omnipotent and omniscient. :icon_mrgr

[silentburn]

- The concept of choice wasn't derived to man. It was derived by man.
I disagree with this point. A little child understands the concept of choice, illusion or not, the first human had some semblance of choice. The so called 'illusion of choice' was not perfected by humans over thousands of years. It is something ingrained in us from the inception humanity.


- Irrelevant. God controls all planes of existence.
Exactly, so we can't do anything that He doesn't want us to do. He allows us to follow our own logic or emotions to arrive at predetermined options.


- To choose is to effect change which is synonymous with control.
Yes, but does predefined choices really effect change or do those choices just follow set patterns? If the choices that mankind makes are predetermined then how can man be in control if he can only pick from options made available to him? Remember, God is the one who makes those options available. Choice is not synonymous with Control, they are two different things. They may be intertwined but they are not synonymous.

- Which is why I'm right. ;)
- Again, exactly why I'm right. ;)
Yes we both agree that God has absolute control


- Because every facet of your existence is a part of His design. Therefore, everything you do is predicated by God's control, not yours.
Yes, and since every facet of our existence is designed then any choice we would have made has already been analyzed hence why God is still in control even if a human has some semblance of choice.


- Humans don't exhibit any control if everything they do was already pre-scripted by God.
- Which is again, why we have no control. ;)
- Which is why it is only an illusion. Choice is an illusion of control. ;)


Choice is a real concept to humans. We are not God, we are not omniscient, we were given a concept of choice to exist as intelligent beings. The point is that every facet of our life is affected by decisions. If it is an illusion, the illusion was created by God. The illusions play a part in determining how we will end up in the long run.

The rules of a video game are usually defined and there are only a limited amount of ways to win that game. Even though the game is not real we still have to take specific options if we want to win. Similarly, it doesn't matter whether choice is an illusion or not. Humans are the ones stuck on earth, there's absolutely no way to escape. We have to play by the rules, we are allowed the concept of choice in our frame of existence.

The concept of choice is real and living when considered on the plane of humanity.

[Xenocrates]

This is fun. :icon_mrgr

Ok, I can see this concept is difficult for you to understand. So let's try this a different way:

Cause and Effect

Every action in the universe is a result of cause and effect. Think of the universe as a giant array of dominoes, and God knocked over the first domino. After that, zillions of dominoes in every which direction have started to topple over each other. You're just one of a bazillion, gazillion, katrillion, gajillion, quitrillion, zillion, billion dominoes in the universe, each knocking over each other in what appears to be an infinite chain of cause and effect; hence why choice does not exist. Everything you do has already been predetermined by the pre-arrangement of the array of all the dominoes in the universe. When God tipped over the first domino, he set the universe in motion as a self regulated, automated machine. So you're not actually choosing to do anything. You're just one domino falling over into several trillion others while simultaneously, you were one of trillions of other domnioes toppled over by trillions of others. Everything in the universe is connected and ordered like that. There is no randomness about anything.

As such, we only say "choice" when some of the dominoes are imperceptible to human sensibility.

Get it? :D

[silentburn]

This is fun. :icon_mrgr

Ok, I can see this concept is difficult for you to understand. So let's try this a different way:
I understand your concept perfectly. I'm just choosing to disagree.


Everything you do has already been predetermined by the pre-arrangement of the array of all the dominoes in the universe.


We still don't know how those dominoes will fall, only God knows that, therefore we still have to make choices. Choices exist, whether in illusion form or not. The concept of choice was implanted in us from the inception. All I'm saying is that from the human perspective choice is a very real and inescapable thing. As I have said earlier, it is impossible for us to escape the game of life. We have to play through to the end.

Decisions must be made. This is our reality. We are not gods, we are not omniscient.

[Xenocrates]

You think you're disagreeing with me, but somehow you're not. Furthermore there's only one way each domino can fall. That's why choice doesn't exist. ;)

[silentburn]

We are agreeing that God is omniscient so he knows the end from the beginning. We are however disagreeing that God's omniscience immediately rids us of our life and the way we choose to live it. Our choice is taken away when God cuts us off or seals us. He allows it to play out. He could fast forward and just bring us to the end but He allows it to play out.

Yea, the dominoes may be only falling one way but humans can't even see the direction of that cascading fall. Therefore, from a human perspective, choice exist, simply because we still have to wade our way through life, there's nothing we can do to escape. God's omniscience does not allow us to escape our present life nor the choices/decisions which are attached to that life.

[Xenocrates]

We are however disagreeing that God's omniscience immediately rids us of our life and the way we choose to live it. - I never once said that we humans will not perceive choice. I've said it over and over again: We perceive choice when we can't see all the variables. I've said it a thousand different ways in this same thread. I merely changed my wording to produce this:

Yea, the dominoes may be only falling one way but humans can't even see the direction of that cascading fall. Therefore, from a human perspective, choice exist, simply because we still have to wade our way through life, there's nothing we can do to escape. God's omniscience does not allow us to escape our present life nor the choices/decisions which are attached to that life. - Which is exactly what I wanted to hear. Finally we agree. Thank you for seeing things my way. I hereby rest my case. :icon_mrgr

[silentburn]

Good. So we do agree that God is omnipotent(powerful) enough to disallow His omniscience(infinite foreknowledge) from interfering with the ultimate choice of life or death, which is the final combination of all the choices a human makes throughout his life.

Ok, its settled. :eusa_clap :icon_mrgr

[Xenocrates]

Good. So we do agree that God is omnipotent(powerful) enough to disallow His omniscience(infinite foreknowledge) from interfering with the ultimate choice of life or death, which is the final combination of all the choices a human makes throughout his life. - Is that what you've been saying all along? LMAO :rotflm:

We're gonna need a new thread. :dwl: :icon_mrgr