Belief is Moot

[Xenocrates]

For those of us who subscribe to Christianity (in one way or another), do you realise that if you grew up in an Islamic country, you'd have the same potent sense of belief in Islam as you do now in Christianity?

[nuhsenutten]

That comes as no big surprise due to the fact that we learn everything from either our parents or environment.

just never thought of it as being where u live affecting who u percieve as God. weird.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

For those of us who subscribe to Christianity (in one way or another), do you realise that if you grew up in an Islamic country, you'd have the same potent sense of belief in Islam as you do now in Christianity?

That is true. This would be the case until a person is exposed to something, or some event which causes them to question what it is they believe. At that point, some form of self-examination, and evaluation of the belief system takes place, which ultimately leads to a concious decision to accept or reject the belief system and subscribe to another.

[Manu]

Quite so! Belief cures and belief kills.

[Greatis]

ahhh I believe we had this argument on another forum... I have heard many people saying they could never be Buddhists but if you were born in the east it would me be a possiblity.

[Xenocrates]

What if what we believe is wrong?

[Cocoa]

What if what we believe is wrong?Then enloghtenment will come.

[duster]

What if what we believe is wrong?

are you questioning your faith?

[silentburn]

are you questioning your faith?

:eusa_thin Duster is how you find this? I thought all of these threads were already tied up.


What if what we believe is wrong?

Yea, what if our beliefs are wrong? On the other hand, how can it be wrong?

Then enlightenment will come.

Most of the important things in life comes through due diligence and hardwork. Enlightenment is probably not going to drop in our laps.

[ramesh]

are you questioning your faith?Are you saying there is something wrong in questioning your faith, values and everything else you believe in? Isn't truth better than faith?

[Greatis]

ahhh but duster if one is to receive enlightenment one has to question the foundations upon which one's faith is constructed no?

That question's ans isn't relevant to the thread Duster.

[duster]

Are you saying there is something wrong in questioning your faith, values and everything else you believe in? Isn't truth better than faith?

im not saying thats its wrong i was just questioning him. maybe i could reassure him:D

[silentburn]

im not saying thats its wrong i was just questioning him. maybe i could reassure him:D

How are you going to reassure him? Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that our beliefs are right? :icon_neut

[duster]

How are you going to reassure him? Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that our beliefs are right? :icon_neut

I can do it for mine but maybe not urs if i dont know what they are. Its just like i take to on top of a 100 story building and tell you if you jump off you gonna die. I dont haffi jump off to show you and example now do i?:icon_lol: All i have to do is just bring you to the "understanding" that jumping is dangerous and most likely to end in your death. i question my "religion" all the time but i will never question my "faith". hope you overstand!

[distin]

I can do it for mine but maybe not urs if i dont know what they are. Its just like i take to on top of a 100 story building and tell you if you jump off you gonna die. I dont haffi jump off to show you and example now do i?:icon_lol: All i have to do is just bring you to the "understanding" that jumping is dangerous and most likely to end in your death. i question my "religion" all the time but i will never question my "faith". hope you overstand!


how do u question ur religion and not ur faith?:eusa_thin

[Manu]

Because the two are independent of each other...

[duster]

Because the two are independent of each other...

manu finally mi and you agree pon somthing:eusa_clap

[distin]

Because the two are independent of each other...


oh well if u say so..
i prefer remain silent on this

[duster]

oh well if u say so..
i prefer remain silent on this

distin if u dont understand ask... if you have an opinion state it.

[distin]

distin if u dont understand ask... if you have an opinion state it.


fine i dont get it i thought religion an faith were co-dependent:eusa_thin

[recursion]

fine i dont get it i thought religion an faith were co-dependent:eusa_thin

Check the definitions of each and see if you still feel the same way.

I may have faith and at the same time not endorse any existing religion.
I may endorse a religion and not have an ounce of faith.

[Manu]

Look at it this way... without faith... (whether it is exploited or not placed in the right place is irrelevant) you can't have religion.... but on the flip side... you don't need religion to have faith.....


Remember.... believing in God (a god or THE god) is not a religion. Could even say you have faith in a higher being....

[distin]

oh..
ok then..
its always good to learn something

[silentburn]

This discussion about faith and religion is irrelevant.

The question is: What if our beliefs are wrong? The question bids us to think independently of religion or faith.

First of all, what is it exactly that we believe? Do we even have a clear cut belief system with a logical sequence of events or explanations as to why we are on this earth?

[recursion]

Do we even have a clear cut belief system with a logical sequence of events or explanations as to why we are on this earth?

Does this logical sequence of events or explanations exist? Maybe...
Have we been exposed to it? No

And that sucks out loud! Why couldn't it be simple.

IF...

THEN
...

ELSE
.....




instead


while(x)
if(y)
then(if (q))
maybe(z)

[silentburn]

Does this logical sequence of events or explanations exist? Maybe...
Have we been exposed to it? No

And that sucks out loud! Why couldn't it be simple.

IF...

THEN
...

ELSE
.....




instead


while(x)
if(y)
then(if (q))
maybe(z)

History has unfolded in a logical fashion, so from the past to the present has been pretty straight forward.

What do we believe?

I believe we were created, what does everyone else believe?

[Manu]

I am a scientist and I believe in creation. Not because of religion... but because of logic!

[recursion]

I am a scientist and I believe in creation. Not because of religion... but because of logic!

I too believe in creation, but could you explain the logical basis on which your belief stands. Even your existence is uncertain. You assume you exist because your mortal mind tells you that you do.

[ramesh]

I may exist, but perhaps not as my senses tell me, for they could be the conduits of misinformation.

[Greatis]

I may exist, but perhaps not as my senses tell me, for they could be the conduits of misinformation.

hmmm ramesh sir Isaac Asimov has gotten to you hasn't he, The matrix has you wondering huh....

STOP reading so much ramesh :icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr

[Manu]

I too believe in creation, but could you explain the logical basis on which your belief stands. Even your existence is uncertain. You assume you exist because your mortal mind tells you that you do.

It is not logical that this world came from a single molecule. I don't care about the timeline. People say that most things are similar hence the phylogeny but I believe they are similar because they were created by the same person.

It does get convoluted when the whole Adam and Eve thing comes about...
Maybe man couldn't comprehend at the time that the world existed millions of years before he came about so he said that God created it in 6. Remember, for thousands of years... people said the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us....

[silentburn]

I too believe in creation, but could you explain the logical basis on which your belief stands. Even your existence is uncertain. You assume you exist because your mortal mind tells you that you do.

Lets be practical, we are alive and kicking; our little slice of reality is not a simulation, its real.

We are obviously here on purpose, this didn't just happen. You know what, I don't even believe that the earth took billions of years to become inhabitable. Whatever happened that made this place habitable happened shortly before we came on the scene. A few thousand years at the most, humans have definitely not been here more than a few thousand years.

Put all that aside though, the point that most of us seem to agree on is that we had to be created and that an environment was prepared for us beforehand to ensure our continued existence.

It doesn't even get convoluted with Adam and Eve, that's pretty straight forward. All it takes is one man and one woman to populate this earth.

Where it gets cloudy is when we reach the question of ''why the heck are we here and what's the next big thing that's going to happen?''

It is at this point that views begin to diverge significantly.

[ramesh]

Lets be practical, we are alive and kicking; our little slice of reality is not a simulation, its real. Are you sure of that or do you believe what your senses tell you as fact? Even that could be simulated (see my last post).

We are obviously here on purpose, this didn't just happen. Please quote proof. Or is this just a 'belief'?

You know what, I don't even believe that the earth took billions of years to become inhabitable. Whatever happened that made this place habitable happened shortly before we came on the scene. A few thousand years at the most, humans have definitely not been here more than a few thousand years. So all the evidence dug up is wrong? What basis do you have for this? Or is this another 'belief'?

Put all that aside though, the point that most of us seem to agree on is that we had to be created and that an environment was prepared for us beforehand to ensure our continued existence. You mean the people who moved from Africa to Europe had a perfect environment for survival? Then why did they move?

It doesn't even get convoluted with Adam and Eve, that's pretty straight forward. All it takes is one man and one woman to populate this earth. So all their children performed incest? Doesn't sound so straightforward to me. There are scientific reasons for not bearing children from close relatives.

Where it gets cloudy is when we reach the question of ''why the heck are we here and what's the next big thing that's going to happen?'' For scientists, it's quite simple. We are here through a natural progression of events that took place over many billions of years. There is much scientific evidence of this.

It is at this point that views begin to diverge significantly.I 'believe' it was a long time before that. :)

[silentburn]

Are you sure of that or do you believe what your senses tell you as fact? Even that could be simulated (see my last post).

Well until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that life is simulated then I will continue to believe that my life is a reality. :icon_mrgr


Please quote proof. Or is this just a 'belief'?
Can you prove otherwise ?



So all the evidence dug up is wrong? What basis do you have for this? Or is this another 'belief'?

Yup, some of the information is fabricated. Especially the data about pre historic man. Google it. I don't believe everything I am taught at school, do you? :eusa_thin

You mean the people who moved from Africa to Europe had a perfect environment for survival? Then why did they move?

Oh I was referring to the earth in general. The earth had to be here before humans came into existence. Do you disagree? :eusa_thin

So all their children performed incest? Doesn't sound so straightforward to me. There are scientific reasons for not bearing children from close relatives.

Yea, something like that.

For scientists, it's quite simple. We are here through a natural progression of events that took place over many billions of years. There is much scientific evidence of this.

Ramesh, you really believe that? Please explain the theory. How did the universe come about by the splitting of one single particle? Where did the particle/atom (whatever you want to call it) come from?

[ramesh]

Yup, some of the information is fabricated. Especially the data about pre historic man. Google it. I don't believe everything I am taught at school, do you? :eusa_thin All data has to be checked and verified by independent scientists before any theory or evidence is taken as fact. Have you ever seen scientific journals? Every item of information is dissected and argued until the truth is irrevocable.

Oh I was referring to the earth in general. The earth had to be here before humans came into existence. Do you disagree? :eusa_thin Obviously! It was here for billions of years, until the right environment existed for life to evolve and become what it is now.

Ramesh, you really believe that? Please explain the theory. How did the universe come about by the splitting of one single particle? Where did the particle/atom (whatever you want to call it) come from? Who said it all came from one particle/atom? Please get your facts straight. Please quote sources.

[silentburn]

All data has to be checked and verified by independent scientists before any theory or evidence is taken as fact. Have you ever seen scientific journals? Every item of information is dissected and argued until the truth is irrevocable.

They find one thigh bone or one skull and then they label it as the bridge between apes and man? :rolleyes: Ramesh, they still have not found the evasive link of where ape becomes man. Most of the bones they have discovered are of apes, not of pre-historic man.

Obviously! It was here for billions of years, until the right environment existed for life to evolve and become what it is now.

Everything has come together too perfectly for this to happen by chance.


Who said it all came from one particle/atom? Please get your facts straight. Please quote sources.

Isn't the theory that the universe evolved from an infinitely dense atomic particle widely accepted?

This is how the general theory usually begins.
Approximately 13.7 billion years ago, the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself. Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.

Taken from here. http://ssscott.tripod.com/BigBang.html
(http://ssscott.tripod.com/BigBang.html)
Put all the semantics aside though, what came before the big bang?
Better yet, suppose what you believe is not true Ramesh? What will you believe?

[Manu]

If what we believe is not true... what are the consequences of that? I for one don't mind. I'm open to learning so if what I perceive as reality is indeed a fallacy then no problem. I will be disappointed but I won't lose sleep over it.

[Nika_869]

Xeno rolls through, makes his comment. Somebody resurrects it, have yet to see Xeno reappear to give his input. Wow.

[silentburn]

I still can't fathom infinite time. :icon_eek:

Xeno rolls through, makes his comment. Somebody resurrects it, have yet to see Xeno reappear to give his input. Wow.

Loss of interest I guess. This isn't the first thread of its kind, there have been dozens. A lot of the topics have been respectably exhausted.

[ramesh]

I still can't fathom infinite time. :icon_eek:
Xeno is busy with his own Blog. I doubt he has time for us mere mortals. :eusa_doh:

Infinite time is like infinite space, no end and no beginning, always was and always will be (I'm beginning to sound like Dido's 'White Flag'!!).

Anyway, speaking about infinite time and space, scientists has formulated a theory (which is being debated but is gathering more supporters while the evidence mounts) that the this Universe is a part of many Universes all bouncing around on 11 Dimensions, and that the points at which the Dimensions intersect are the births of Universes in their own Big Bang. So there may be multiple Big Bangs going on right now, it's just that they are invisible to us.

[silentburn]

Xeno is busy with his own Blog. I doubt he has time for us mere mortals. :eusa_doh:

Yea, the blog has all the topics raised here and more.


Infinite time is like infinite space, no end and no beginning, always was and always will be (I'm beginning to sound like Dido's 'White Flag'!!).

Anyway, speaking about infinite time and space, scientists has formulated a theory (which is being debated but is gathering more supporters while the evidence mounts) that the this Universe is a part of many Universes all bouncing around on 11 Dimensions, and that the points at which the Dimensions intersect are the births of Universes in their own Big Bang. So there may be multiple Big Bangs going on right now, it's just that they are invisible to us.

Yea, its mind boggling.

[Xenocrates]

are you questioning your faith?
I question everything. Blind belief is for simple minds.

Yea, what if our beliefs are wrong?
Then we're in trouble.

On the other hand, how can it be wrong?
Because it is based on faith, not proof.

fine i dont get it i thought religion an faith were co-dependent:eusa_thin
Buddhism is a religion but it doesn't have a God at the center of it so it doesn't require faith.

Xeno is busy with his own Blog. I doubt he has time for us mere mortals. :eusa_doh: Absolutely. Having a blast too.

Anyway, speaking about infinite time and space, scientists has formulated a theory (which is being debated but is gathering more supporters while the evidence mounts) that the this Universe is a part of many Universes all bouncing around on 11 Dimensions, and that the points at which the Dimensions intersect are the births of Universes in their own Big Bang. So there may be multiple Big Bangs going on right now, it's just that they are invisible to us. M Theory. Yes. Many atheists don't like M Theory though, because it scientifically proves that God exists.

[Gillion]

If simple scientific human observable proof is found that GOD exists, we are screwed.

It will unleash a massive chaotic wave of lunacy on this planet.

The reason we humans have faith alone to work with, is that most of us cannot handle more.

The truth would warp our minds. Destroy our current civilisation. Drive us into great sorrow and madness.

[ramesh]

A similar thing may happen if Aliens from some distant planet visit Earth.

Much that is held as truths keep us sane. From out of the mouth of madness the destruction of civilisation may be possible.

[Xenocrates]

The reason we humans have faith alone to work with, is that most of us cannot handle more. The truth would warp our minds. Destroy our current civilisation. Drive us into great sorrow and madness.

I agree with this postulate. In fact:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/xenocrates/stamp_cert.gif
This post has been certified for sheer unparalleled awesomeness.
You may at this point veritably request worship.

[Nika_869]

**grabs popcorn** Continue.