Dancehall music and international Outrage!

[Xenocrates]

So in light of recent related events... what do you mean you don't know which related events? Ok, lemme bring you up 2 speed:

Gay rights group Outrage! speaks out against anti-gay lyrics by prominent dancehall "musicians" (note the quotes) who are currently attempting to tour Europe (which for the most part, has no issues with gays - talk about a conflict of interest)


Several shows are cancelled in Europe by entities therein because of opposition to these DJ's anti-gay lyrics.


MOBO™ award (Music Of Black Origin) nominations are retracted from two of our prominent "musicians" who have sung anti-gay lyrics, even though the nominations were not for songs which were anti-gay in nature.


Coporate Jamaica (Courts Ja, Digicel, Redstripe, Cable & Wireless, Jamaica National to name a few) has pulled the financial plug on these artists, telling them that if they don't clean up their act (literally :icon_mrgr ), they get no more sponsorship.


Jamaicans who have long been unnerved by dancehall music lyrics are now verbally assaulting the "musicians" wantonly and indiscriminately in the media - saying their lyrics are too violent, decrepit, mysogynistic etc.


(Personally, I'm in Outrage! at Outrage!'s Outrageous beliefs...but that's for another Outrageous thread...lol)

So these "musicians" are totally sunk right now. But my questions to you are these:

1. Is the freedom of speech a justifiable argument to debase women (or gays...whatever :rolleyes: ...like I give a flying f...umm...nm) or other social classes?

2. Is it ethical for the european governing bodies to retract the MOBO™ awards from these "musicians" even though the nominations were not for anti-gay songs?

3. Why do you think that corporate Jamaica only just now pulled the plug on these "musicians" in light of the fact that now europe is literally in Outrage! (pun intended) about their music?

4. Is it ok to write lyrics that are anti-gay just because we (normal people) are (religiously & socially) convicted that same sex relationships are disgusting?

5. Should dancehall lyrics that encourage "...boom bye bye...", "...informer fi dead..." and "...bun babylon..." be banned by our Government in light of the international and local Outrage! ? (no pun intended this time :icon_mrgr )

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Bowy... here's my 2 cents...

1. Is the freedom of speech a justifiable argument to debase women (or gays...whatever ...like I give a flying f...umm...nm) or other social classes?

From a moral perspective, no. It's immoral to debase anyone. From a legal perspective, well, I guess it depends on the laws of the land. Some territories may allow it, some may not.

2. Is it ethical for the european governing bodies to retract the MOBO™ awards from these "musicians" even though the nominations were not for anti-gay songs?

No it is not ethical for them to do so. Other artists (white) have sang political songs, racist songs, sexist songs etc. but have not been barred from awards when they enter songs that are not offensive. It's not fair.


3. Why do you think that corporate Jamaica only just now pulled the plug on these "musicians" in light of the fact that now europe is literally in Outrage! (pun intended) about their music?

Are they really pulling the plug? Who is starring in the latest round of B-Mobile ads? The same artists under fire from Outrage. Corporations will act to protect their profits. They act now to preserve their corporate image. Especially if they have parent companies or subsidiaries in those territories that are in Outrage.

4. Is it ok to write lyrics that are anti-gay just because we (normal people) are (religiously & socially) convicted that same sex relationships are disgusting?

It is ok to write a song which expresses an opionion of homosexuality being wrong. Songs calling for violence or debasement are a different story. People write songs speaking out about all sorts of wickedness or corruption. They don't have to do it in a manner that condones violence. There's nothing wrong with speaking out on an issue.

5. Should dancehall lyrics that encourage "...boom bye bye...", "...informer fi dead..." and "...bun babylon..." be banned by our Government in light of the international and local Outrage! ? (no pun intended this time )


There was a time when the govt. banned songs like "Gun eena baggie" and "Shaka Zulu". Nowadays, you hear all sorts of explicit things on the radio in prime time ("Tek **** gyal) etc. Sure they bleep out certain words, but a 2 year old could figure them out based on the context. Not to mention the days when it was songs talking about saying no to drugs playing on the radio rather than nowadays when people are singing about "high grade".

I think the negative stuff should be taken off the airwaves where impressionable kids can hear it easily. But it should not have to have waited for this gay business to bring out that point.

[Xenocrates]

There was a time when the govt. banned songs like "Gun eena baggie" and "Shaka Zulu". Nowadays, you hear all sorts of explicit things on the radio in prime time ("Tek **** gyal) etc. Sure they bleep out certain words, but a 2 year old could figure them out based on the context. Not to mention the days when it was songs talking about saying no to drugs playing on the radio rather than nowadays when people are singing about "high grade".

- Good points. That's why I have to ask:

1. Why did the Gov't ease up on them? Is it because Shabba Ranks and others gained international notoriety even though the music that took them there was likewise mysogynistic and sexually explicit?

2. What's the point of censoring the wording if the same idea is being fed into your mind anyway? Censorship achieves nothing since, as you said, the context still remains!

3. Because of the deep burial in the Jamaican psyche of the correlation between dancehall and violence/lewd lyrics (personally, I can't recall too many chunes that don't have these properties) what's the point of cleaning up dancehall? Won't the people boycott it anyway as they do Morgan Heritage and other "conscious"* musicians?

4. What then if dancehall becomes the very thing that it is not? Wouldn't it make sense to do away with dancehall? Look at the last sting clash. Doesn't that tell you that people are taking the lyrics seriously?

* - conscious here is relative, depending on how much weed you've had :icon_mrgr

[ramesh]

Well if they would just stop jumping up and down the stage like monkeys......

Oops, sorry, it seems I'm also guilty of debasing people! ;)

[AngelsKiss]

Well if they would just stop jumping up and down the stage like monkeys......

Oops, sorry, it seems I'm also guilty of debasing people! ;)
LMBO @ Ramesh, there goes my imagination again :icon_mrgr

[Drew]

trance anyone?? anyone??

[AngelsKiss]

trance anyone?? anyone??
Trance has got your brain so screwed up that even when the subject is about dancehall you still go off in a trance :icon_mrgr

[Drew]

think about it for one second angel. can any of those questions be involved with trance?? i can tell u the answer is no.

[AngelsKiss]

think about it for one second angel. can any of those questions be involved with trance?? i can tell u the answer is no.
Well how would you knowi f your in a trance? :)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

The Outrage hit list is growing.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Why can an artist like Eminem get away with lyrics that advocate killing gays, and never be banned or boycotted or have his shows cancelled, yet Jamaicans get shut down?

[Drew]

because he's isn't from a third world country.

[Bashment Girl]

1. Is the freedom of speech a justifiable argument to debase women (or gays...whatever ...like I give a flying f...umm...nm) or other social classes?

To me, whether I agree with what is being said or not... yes people have the right to express what they want to IN THEIR ART! Also... I'd like to say, often times, people choose to focus the "negative" lyrics and messages... but forget about all the positive ones.

2. Is it ethical for the european governing bodies to retract the MOBO™ awards from these "musicians" even though the nominations were not for anti-gay songs?

If they uphold a certain moral code, and they feel that certain artists winning their award represents them in a negative light.... then yes they do. I hate to say it, but they have that right.

These characters don't have a right to water down my dancehall and tell deejay's what and what not to talk about though! OK?!

3. Why do you think that corporate Jamaica only just now pulled the plug on these "musicians" in light of the fact that now europe is literally in Outrage! (pun intended) about their music?

Because it is now, and will continue in the future... to cost them money! That's the bottom line, otherwise ... the JA officials would tell these European nations where to go!

4. Is it ok to write lyrics that are anti-gay just because we (normal people) are (religiously & socially) convicted that same sex relationships are disgusting?

Yes! An artist is not an artist if they can not express their beliefs just as freely as anyone else! They have the right to express things (even if I don't agree with what is said). People who are offended have the freedom not to support people who they feel, represent things they don't agree with!

5. Should dancehall lyrics that encourage "...boom bye bye...", "...informer fi dead..." and "...bun babylon..." be banned by our Government in light of the international and local Outrage! ? (no pun intended this time )

Heck nah! LUDACRIS to even contemplate it!

Again I ask why do people choose to focus only on those kind of songs? "boom Bye bye" for example.. it's ONE song by Buju wirtten and recorded soooooo long ago! Let's also acknowlage songs like "Untold Stories" and that one "Circumstances made me what I am" (what's it called? hmph:( I forget), that speak on REAL issues in JAMAICA. Anyway.... again people choose to judge a culture on one aspect as opposed to seeing the WHOLE PICTURE!

See this is what I have been in fear of from the moment I saw dancehall getting popular! The music industry wants to bank on the culture (sounds, clothes etc.), with out truely supporting it. That's what happened in HIP HOP and this is what's going on here! They're on their way to watering down Jamaican music. Just like there's bubble gum rappers like Will Smith, Chingey and Nelly... you'll soon see garbage like that in danehall/reggae! These clowns shouldn't have record deals... neither should that darn NINA SKY be singin reggae! :( Don't be surprised if there is a gay man, claiming to be a RATSA... singing dancehall sometime soon... it's coming... watch! :rolleyes:

To me.... the day I go to a DANCE and do not hear BOOM BYE BYE... is the day I stop going to dances STRAIGHT! :cool:

[ramesh]

Hmmm, so what you are saying is that it's Ok to encourage violence against individuals in music?

[Drew]

no ramesh. she saying that people should sing about anything they want to, and that there are many positive songs in dancehall that are being left out of the picture.

i agree with you bash girl. oh, btw, went to asylum's reopening on friday night, they had an entire hour just for these homosexuals and the place mash up, trust me, it was HYPE!!!!.

[Drew]

Yes! An artist is not an artist if they can not express their beliefs just as freely as anyone else

Let's also acknowlage songs like ....... that speak on REAL issues in JAMAICA.that pretty sums up her entire post.

[Bashment Girl]

Hmmm, so what you are saying is that it's Ok to encourage violence against individuals in music?


So of that big huge post, that is what you pulled from it? Or are you asking me if I uphold values of those who promote violence in society?

I am saying that people have a right to express their views on morality as much as you have the right to oppose it! They see the world one way, and have the right to express what they see!

[Drew]

nice signature bashie, i c u like the tweeta talk. :cool:
btw, check out the hangman thread and tell me if u can figure out the name of that dance. the contestants need a little help.

[Bashment Girl]

nice signature bashie, i c u like the tweeta talk. :cool:
btw, check out the hangman thread and tell me if u can figure out the name of that dance. the contestants need a little help.

Oh drew... my favourite tweeta pateeta :eusa_danc ....I dipped into your hang man thread. ;)

I'm sure I will get it... but it's not obvious to me right now! :(

[ramesh]

So of that big huge post, that is what you pulled from it? Or are you asking me if I uphold values of those who promote violence in society?

I am saying that people have a right to express their views on morality as much as you have the right to oppose it! They see the world one way, and have the right to express what they see! Oh I agree that they have the right to express their views, but if they ever mention harm or incite others to harm, then they step over the line. People are people and they have a right to do what they want in their home as long as it does not harm others or try to change anyone's POV. To propose harm to them or consider them less than human (i.e. animals) is irresponsible and may be the direct cause of events the singer may or may not have intended.

[AngelsKiss]

Oh I agree that they have the right to express their views, but if they ever mention harm or incite others to harm, then they step over the line. People are people and they have a right to do what they want in their home as long as it does not harm others or try to change anyone's POV. To propose harm to them or consider them less than human (i.e. animals) is irresponsible and may be the direct cause of events the singer may or may not have intended.
Precisely Ramesh...also there is a difference between promoting morality and using words to incite violence against a group of ppl because of their choice. I may not like or agree with their choice but it is wrong incite violence against them via music or any other form. What is to stop a KKK from using the same format to incite violence against blacks?

We need to be more careful of what we promote as art or what we deemed freedom of expression. The truth is, it has become a vicious cycle in that, homosexuals feel they are forced to rise up against a society that oppresses them, not unlike blacks during slavery and heterosexuals in trun feel they have to rid the society of homosexuals.

This is not to say that I think we should change our laws to suit homosexuals, nor do I agree with the Human Rights Reports. However, we do have to acknowledge that there has been violence against homosexuals within our society and we need to do every thing in our power to stop it. We cannot save and condemned all at the same time.

We need to remember that in the eyes of God we are all sinners. Christ said:

Matthew 9:13 - Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 12:47 - If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

1 Timothy 1:15 - The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners;

[Bashment Girl]

Oh I agree that they have the right to express their views, but if they ever mention harm or incite others to harm, then they step over the line.

I agree with as much as, one should not advocate hate crimes. I agree but let's talk about stepping over this "line" ......

To propose harm to them or consider them less than human (i.e. animals) is irresponsible and may be the direct cause of events the singer may or may not have intended.

Lyrics are unfortunately, as any other art form, open to interpretation. What do you consider advocating HATE?

A lot of times in reggae/dancehall you will hear the phrase "BUN OUT.." in regards to people, or actions they feel is immoral or not suitable.

Do you really believe they literally mean the physical destructive act "to set fire to"... or do you think they mean "to speak out against", or to "disaprove of"????

My point being... whether or not an artist is advocating violence, or simply disaproving of something is open to interpretation... therefore when do we decide what is crossing a line and what isn't?

Also... artists are not the direct cause of hate crimes... we all know this and shouldn't pretend to be ignorant to that fact. The cause of hate crimes could be discussed all day, but usually it's to do with the WANT to destroy what one doesn't understand.

[BlackCryptoKnight]

A lot of times in reggae/dancehall you will hear the phrase "BUN OUT.." in regards to people, or actions they feel is immoral or not suitable.

Do you really belive they literally mean the physical destructive act "to set fire to"... or do you think they mean "to speak out against", or to "disaprove of"????


In some cases BG, they may use a phrase like that to really mean "to speak out against". But in other cases, they plainly state things like "Kill them now, come mek wi shot dem dead." ala Boom Bye Bye.

Last night on the news there was a report on an effort being undertaken by a group of entertainers lead by Tony Rebel (Artists against AIDS or something like that) to encourage dancehall artists to refrain from promoting behaviour that increases a persons risk to HIV/AIDS such as sexual promiscuity. Some artists were supportive, but some weren't. One such artist, Zoom Jay, made a statement to the effect that he would follow in the footsteps of King Solomon, the wisest man on earth who he claimed had 40 wives, and continue to seek out more women and promote this in his music.

Now, that to me, is a very sad statement. In light of the facts about the dangers and risks out there, and knowing the power and influence that these entertainers have, some would still opt to promote behaviour that is self destructive and anti-social. It's the same thing with violence in the music. There are artists who know fully well what they are inciting people to do.

[Bashment Girl]

In some cases BG, they may use a phrase like that to really mean "to speak out against". But in other cases, they plainly state things like "Kill them now, come mek wi shot dem dead." ala Boom Bye Bye.

Yes, I am aware of that... there are worse lyrics than that too! What you say is true... but I never said it is right in this situation. I already said that it isn't fair to advocate hate crimes!

All the same... the day I do not hear that Buju chune inna dance is the day I stop going. Right or wrong.. uh so mi si it! :cool: That may sound hypocritical... but to me.... in regards to that.. that's how I see it!

Again we aren't addressing something here though.... if in a song it says "Hunt, find, shoot, and kill" for example.... will you in turn do it because those are the lyrics you heard in a song?

Last night on the news there was a report on an effort being undertaken by a group of entertainers lead by Tony Rebel (Artists against AIDS or something like that) to encourage dancehall artists to refrain from promoting behaviour that increases a persons risk to HIV/AIDS such as sexual promiscuity. Some artists were supportive, but some weren't. One such artist, Zoom Jay, made a statement to the effect that he would follow in the footsteps of King Solomon, the wisest man on earth who he claimed had 40 wives, and continue to seek out more women and promote this in his music.

Now, that to me, is a very sad statement. In light of the facts about the dangers and risks out there, and knowing the power and influence that these entertainers have, some would still opt to promote behaviour that is self destructive and anti-social. It's the same thing with violence in the music. There are artists who know fully well what they are inciting people to do.

I agree with you, but do we penalise the artists in an entire genre of music because of ignorance that is upheld by the MINORITY? It just seems to me that people are pointing fingers to pass the buck, and ignore the REAL ISSUES!

[AngelsKiss]

I agree with as much as, one should not advocate hate crimes. I agree but let's talk about stepping over this "line" ......



Lyrics are unfortunately, as any other art form, open to interpretation. What do you consider advocating HATE?

A lot of times in reggae/dancehall you will hear the phrase "BUN OUT.." in regards to people, or actions they feel is immoral or not suitable.

Do you really belive they literally mean the physical destructive act "to set fire to"... or do you think they mean "to speak out against", or to "disaprove of"????

My point being... whether or not an artist is advocating violence, or simply disaproving of something is open to interpretation... therefore when do we decide what is crossing a line and what isn't?

Also... artists are not the direct cause of hate crimes... we all know this and should pretend to be ignorant to that fact. The cause of hate crimes could be discussed all day. Usually it's to do with the WANT to destroy what one doesn't understand.


Either you speak from lack of knowledge or you don't want to acknowledge the truth. How well do you understand the Jamaican society? The lyrics used by the dancehall ppl are not simply to advocate against homosexuality and even if it were so there is a better way to express ourselves. There are ppl who take their words literally. Do you know how many times I have heard a heterosexual Jamaican say "b@ttyman fi dead"

It's sad to say that, many of the dancehall djs are not very educated and so express themselves the way they know best, which is often not appropriate.

I still ask the question...if the KKK decided to create songs against black ppl wouldn't we want to put a stop to it? Where does the cycle of discrimination end? At some point we have to know where to draw the line. Freedom of speech doesn't mean we should say as we pls, when in fact it could create more problems.

We can speak out against homosexuality without being so violent and meanspirited.

Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer every one.

Matthew 15:11 - not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."

Matthew 15:18 - But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.

2 Timothy 2:16 - Avoid such godless chatter, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,

Titus 3:2-3 - to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all men. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another;

I could go on and on but I think this says enough about what should come out of our mouth!

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Again we aren't addressing something here though.... if in a song it says "Hunt, find, shoot, and kill" for example.... will you in turn do it because those are the lyrics you heard in a song?
Nobody should. Most people wouldn't, but some will. The concern is especially for the young impressionable minds of our youth, who will absorb these doctrines, and have their thoughts skewed more and more away from wholesome values. Every individual is accountable and responsible for their actions, but we are also responsible for the influence we have on others. We should not be leading other people to do wrong.

Proverbs 28 KJV
10 Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.



I agree with you, but do we penalise the artists in an entire genre of music because of ignorance that is upheld by the MINORITY? It just seems to me that people are pointing fingers to pass the buck, and ignore the REAL ISSUES!

It's not about penalizing the genre. It's about encouraging responsibility. Artists do have a responsibility for the things they say and how those things impact the society. They may not like it, but it is true. They weild a tremendous amount of influence. As such, they too need to play their part to discourage bad behaviour, and encourage good behaviour.

In the context of the Outrage campaign against the dancehall artists, I suppose they have a right to speak out against music they perceive to be encouraging the development of a threatening physical environment for them.
What I wouldn't want to happen is for this campaign to seek to stifle artists right to speak out against issues and happenings which they feel are wrong.

[Bashment Girl]

Either you speak from lack of knowledge or you don't want to acknowledge the truth. How well do you understand the Jamaican society? The lyrics used by the dancehall ppl are not simply to advocate against homosexuality and even if it were so there is a better way to express ourselves. There are ppl who take their words literally. Do you know how many times I have heard a heterosexual Jamaican say "b@ttyman fi dead"

It's sad to say that, many of the dancehall djs are not very educated and so express themselves the way they know best, which is often not appropriate.

Not that the points you have made aren't true... but no where on this page did I claim that dancehall artists NEVER advocate violence AK. What I did say is that although I do not agree with some, if not a lot of the points of view held by many dancehall artists (specifically in regard to this issue) I don't believe stopping artistic expression (whether inappropriate, or ignorant in YOUR opinion) is going to solve, nor do they cause, the world dilemas... specifically pertaining to the issue at hand here. Also, often times... even when one isn't advocating violence... they are accused of it because of the way something they wrote, was interpreted by someone else!


I still ask the question...if the KKK decided to create songs against black ppl wouldn't we want to put a stop to it? Where does the cycle of discrimination end? At some point we have to know where to draw the line. Freedom of speech doesn't mean we should say as we pls, when in fact it could create more problems.

Here is one thing I can not tolerate! People comparng being black and being gay when they in fact, are nothing to compare!

Let me pose this question. When you look at a person can you tell who they have sexual intercourse with? Can you tell their SEXUAL PREFERENCE by looking at them? NO! You can not!

Now I pose this question... can you tell a ni***r when you see one? Oh darn straight you can!!!!!

Having said this... I find the comparison UNFAIR. I can't hide my brown skin girl... I don't know about anyone else on this forum! So, from the second people see me I am discriminated against in some cases.

How is a homosexual to be discriminated against without broad casting their sexuality or at least making it known? Furthermore is it not their choice to do so?

F.Y.I. The KKK and other white supremacy groups do have artists that produce that sort of music... they have independant labels... and it is not mass produced. If there is one thing I can talk about, with EDUCATION, is the music industry!

We can speak out against homosexuality without being so violent and meanspirited.

Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer every one.

Matthew 15:11 - not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."

Matthew 15:18 - But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.

2 Timothy 2:16 - Avoid such godless chatter, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,

Titus 3:2-3 - to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all men. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another;

I could go on and on but I think this says enough about what should come out of our mouth!

I agree that there are different ways to speak out against homosexuality (if you do not agree with it) with out being violent!

I will say that I refuse to Bible thump where the issue homosexuality is concerned as I have other places and resources to draw from. The reason is that anybody can draw from the bible, and interpret it how they choose to in order to support their argument. Personally, I feel the Bible is about YOUR understanding of it... and what type of reader you are. I leave my religious beliefs out of posts, in regards to this issue for a reason. Namely because not everyone I interact with is going to share the same RELIOGIUOUS beliefs as myself, so why should I bring religion into it when, no matter what religion people follow..... we usually share similar morals, and percptions of what's right and wrong.

I don't know what all of the Bible quoting was for anyway... at no time did I advocate hate crime, or violence of any sort towards homosexuals!

[Bashment Girl]

Every individual is accountable and responsible for their actions, but we are also responsible for the influence we have on others. We should not be leading other people to do wrong.

It's not about penalizing the genre. It's about encouraging responsibility. Artists do have a responsibility for the things they say and how those things impact the society. They may not like it, but it is true. They weild a tremendous amount of influence. As such, they too need to play their part to discourage bad behaviour, and encourage good behaviour.

This I agree with, but is it not also our responsibilty to be the heaviest influence in the minds of our children? No matter what, there will always be outside influence that will be negative, or may not represent the values we try to teach them. The goal isn't to keep them away from these things as much as it is to make sure our moral/value system is instilled in them stronly enough for them to know that...

No matter what another says, or believes.... that doesn't mean you too have to follow them, if you know/feel it isn't right!

I don't think censorship is the best solution to youths with better morals/values... I think understanding is.

Also... as parents... is it not our obligation to moniter what young minds take in, as well as help them understand how to take it in? And what to do with the information? And How to process it?


In the context of the Outrage campaign against the dancehall artists, I suppose they have a right to speak out against music they perceive to be encouraging the development of a threatening physical environment for them.
What I wouldn't want to happen is for this campaign to seek to stifle artists right to speak out against issues and happenings which they feel are wrong.

I agree again but that's exactly what is happening though. A lot of artists that have anti-homosexuality lyrics... are the same ones that sing concsious lyrics about real issues. I mean we can't be so oblivious as to believe that an artist that sings an anti-homosexual tune ... dedicates himself exclusively to that topic right? What is really happening is that, the artists are getting lots of negative attention for lyrics that the European/North American world doesn't approve of in the process they're ignoring the tunes the same artsts release... speaking of issues of more importance!

[ramesh]

These days you cannot hear any contemporary rap/dancehall music without badwords and crass lyrics. Half the music played on the radio these days have muted sections which hamper the flow of the music, yet they download from the Internet the full version with all the dirty, nasty lyrics. That's why the youth of today badmouth their parents - because their idols are also foul-mouthed.

I long for the my youth when we would listen to groups like The Carpenters, Three Dog Night, Simon and Garfunkel, The Stylistics, Chi-Lites, The Manhattans, Diana Ross and the Supremes, Chicago, and singers like Stevie Wonder, Englebert Humperdik, Tom Jones, Andy Williams, Perry Como and many others.

These people never needed to curse to deliver their wonderful music.

[AngelsKiss]

@ Bash

Thats the problem we have in today's society....ppl feel that once you use the scriptures to bring across your point of view you are "bible thumbing". This is not necessarily so. In many instances all it means at least in my case is that, while I am not perfect I try to live by a code of ethics taken from the Bible.

If you have a problem with the use of scriptures you can simply ignore them. We are each entitle to our poits of view as long as we don't force them on others.

You mention freedom of expression which I quiet agree with to some extent, so I will say I have the freedom to use the bible to express my views.

As for talking about interpretation, well I can't say that I agree with you that it's based on each persons interpretation. It's more about studying the bible not just by yourself but with others to get a better understanding. It's also about praying for guidance.

You also mention the fact that their is no comparison between the KKK and homosexuality, let me point out that any form of injustice is a problem. As Martin Luther King said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice every where"

As stated before it's one thing to speak out against homosexuality, but it's another to advocate violence against them and that is a problem that Jamaica has whether you want to believe it or not!


@ Ramesh

As usual you bring across your points with clarity and logic! BTW Ramesh...I think you would like my collection of CDs, since I have CDs by most of those artist...infact I just bought an Engelbert Humperdink :)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

This I agree with, but is it not also our responsibilty to be the heaviest influence in the minds of our children? No matter what, there will always be outside influence that will be negative, or may not represent the values we try to teach them. The goal isn't to keep them away from these things as much as it is to make sure our moral/value system is instilled in them stronly enough for them to know that...
...

I don't think censorship is the best solution to youths with better morals/values... I think understanding is.

Also... as parents... is it not our obligation to moniter what young minds take in, as well as help them understand how to take it in? And what to do with the information? And How to process it?
You make some good points. Yes it is the responsibility of the parent to bring children up to be able to appropriately deal with the many potential influences out there. In order for them to train the children,they have to shield them from potentially harmful influences until the children are strong enough to take the training and deal with the real world. The problem is that today, negative influences are so pervasive, that a parent cannot shield their child from things out there. So despite their best efforts at training etc. it is not enough for many of them. Each member of the society has to take responsibility for that situation. No man is an island, and we are all responsible for the influence we exert on others. Hence if the environment makes it difficult for children to focus on what is right, then the society has to take some of the blame. As such, govts. who have a role in ensuring the stability of the society, should (and some do) recognize the link between peoples actions and words, and negative things happening in the society (risky behaviour, crime etc.). Becuase of that, they take actions to address those issues at the different levels. That may include legislating against certain behaviour, or censoring certain material.

[Bashment Girl]

@ Bash

Thats the problem we have in today's society....ppl feel that once you use the scriptures to bring across your point of view you are "bible thumbing". This is not necessarily so. In many instances all it means at least in my case is that, while I am not perfect I try to live by a code of ethics taken from the Bible.

If you have a problem with the use of scriptures you can simply ignore them. We are each entitle to our poits of view as long as we don't force them on others.

You mention freedom of expression which I quiet agree with to some extent, so I will say I have the freedom to use the bible to express my views.

As for talking about interpretation, well I can't say that I agree with you that it's based on each persons interpretation. It's more about studying the bible not just by yourself but with others to get a better understanding. It's also about praying for guidance.

As stated before it's one thing to speak out against homosexuality, but it's another to advocate violence against them and that is a problem that Jamaica has whether you want to believe it or not!


Being raised in the church, and having to have read and the Bible NUMEROUS time before even hitting adolecence... my MORALS/VALUES have similar background to your and I do not have a "problem" at all... I have a deep understanding of the Christian Bible... as well as many other Holy Books that I've read in my life time.

My post wasn't telling you not to express youerself as a Christian.... I was saying that I do not understand what the scrpitures you quoted have to do with my post.. as I never advocated violence towards anyone, including homosexuals. I agree that you can speak out against things you don't agree with, with out becoming violent.... I have said that at least twice now.. so I was just trying to figure out whether you were responding to MY post or whether you used my post as a platform to express your "agenda"/"position" where the issue of homosexuality, violence and music are concerned because basically, from your responses... either you misunderstood what I posted, or weren't posting in response to me at all... in my opinion.


You also mention the fact that their is no comparison between the KKK and homosexuality, let me point out that any form of injustice is a problem. As Martin Luther King said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice every where"

Not that I don't agree with this.... but again... what does this have to do with my posts? Nowhere did I advocate injustice towards gays, or say that injustice towards them is OK. HAte crimes, or advocay of hate crimes is wrong in my opinion as I've stated before... BUT

Maybe I haven't articulated myself properly. :eusa_thin

I notice that I have answered the question you posed: What if the KKK released hate matierial against Blacks... but the questions I posed were left un touched... interesting! :eusa_thin

The problem is that today, negative influences are so pervasive, that a parent cannot shield their child from things out there. So despite their best efforts at training etc. it is not enough for many of them. Each member of the society has to take responsibility for that situation. No man is an island, and we are all responsible for the influence we exert on others. Hence if the environment makes it difficult for children to focus on what is right, then the society has to take some of the blame. As such, govts. who have a role in ensuring the stability of the society, should (and some do) recognize the link between peoples actions and words, and negative things happening in the society (risky behaviour, crime etc.). Becuase of that, they take actions to address those issues at the different levels. That may include legislating against certain behaviour, or censoring certain material.

Fair enough... but I think it's not impossible I think it's a matter of serious and active involvement! Also .... keep in mind, kids will stray from what they have been taught on their path to finding themselves... but values are INSTILLED.... they have to figure out the value of those values to really appreciate and follow them sometims. Parents can't controll everything, even being active in their childs life they have to leave room for the child as an individual to make it's own mistakes. Censorship won't stop these things.

I do agree that society has to take responsibility for the influence they have on the kind of mistakes children may make.

I like your perspective on this matter though... the conversation has been good for me. ;)

[BlackCryptoKnight]

Fair enough... but I think it's not impossible I think it's a matter of serious and active involvement! Also .... keep in mind, kids will stray from what they have been taught on their path to finding themselves... but values are INSTILLED.... they have to figure out the value of those values to really appreciate and follow them sometims. Parents can't controll everything, even being active in their childs life they have to leave room for the child as an individual to make it's own mistakes. Censorship won't stop these things.

I do agree that society has to take responsibility for the influence they have on the kind of mistakes children may make.

I like your perspective on this matter though... the conversation has been good for me. ;)

Thanks BG ;)

You are right, censorship isn't a magic bullet that will solve all ills, but you know, it can help buy time and minimize some of the potential damage.
If everyone was just more responsible with how they behaved and what they said, the kids would have an easier time holding on to what is good. Ultimately, nothing human beings can do will make the world right. Only God can do that. We just have to do our best until He comes.

[Bashment Girl]

Here are some quotes from some of the artists in this genre regarding this issue and to be perfectly honest, I looooove what CAPLETON says about the matter! Sizzla too... they see this garbage for what it really is. Also Kartel makes an interesting, yet unexpected statement as well.

That don't hurt me one bit because what they're doing is total stupidness. The Bible tell you dat if a man wid another man he most be cut off from his nation or put to death. That's not my law - it's God said that law. I'm just sitting down one day and waiting to see some brimstone start falling.

How'd ya like dem apples! lol

Metaphorical speaking when the artists say certain things but it’s not a literal thing. When capleton say 'burn' and when Capleton say 'more fire' it don't mean literal go out there and kill people - it's not on a destructive level. You can't not interpret Patois to standard English and say yes this is what we're saying. Bob Marley said 'I shot the Sheriff' but does that mean he shot the Sheriff with a literal bullet? No! It means that he shot the Sheriff with his words... These people are trying to turn da people against us.

Hmmmmm some of what he said sound familiar huh? :eusa_thin :)

: I'm looking forward to going to the UK. Its going to be a pleasure. We just come to spread peace love and unity. We no feel no pressure. I can only speak for 5th Element. We come to speak peace love and unity. 5th Element is about equal rights and justice. I represent African. No one can fight the music. The music is unstoppable.

: When you grow up in a country that doesn't do certain things - that is our policy but the artists don't mean any harm, it's just lyrics, it's just making money it's just getting foul on stage. They don't really mean no harm. They do it because it will sell - because it's for Jamaicans that believe it's [homosexuality] is not right. We don't really mean it, we don't get up and really kill people. If it's harming the music we should just leave it alone and led God be the decider.

: Well originally in Jamaica, Jamaican music is a music that has strong homophobic origins also the artists. But growing up and life is learning process and in life you go through stages and you learn. IN a world right now colour and society Jamaica needs move forward in the 21st Century. So right now we need to take stance to denounce violence against any group or people.

[ramesh]

It seems when they write the lyrics they don't take the time to see the full implications of what they are saying and how it can be interpreted then. So when they say, " Boom, bye bye inna ........... head" how should we interpret that, or how do Jamaican people interpret that? Shooting words into people heads?

[Bashment Girl]

It seems when they write the lyrics they don't take the time to see the full implications of what they are saying and how it can be interpreted then. So when they say, " Boom, bye bye inna ........... head" how should we interpret that, or how do Jamaican people interpret that? Shooting words into people heads?

This much I agree with Ram. Since they're putting lyrics out there they should think first, in terms of how they choose to say things or represent themselves in issues!

In response to your question, how these lyrics are interpreted isn't a culture issue! Many Jamaicans I know are offended by and actually hate that song, where as others say Buju is right for speaking out against an act that the Bible says is wrong. Some think he seriously advocates killing people in it, others will use the same analogy to describe it's meaning as Capelton did in that quote below.

In regards to the line you quoted in that song: Have you ever said to someone "If you do that I'm going to kill you" (or something to that effect) without actually meaning to physically kill them? Everyone has! So why is it so different in song? People often use exaggeration to make a point.

ONE question though. Why is that same Buju song constantly being brought up when this subject is in discussion by anyone? It was released in like 1993 or something like that. To me that say a lot about the people fighting these artists to beging with.

Is it right to penalize an artist for something they put out there 10 years ago and since then, have had many songs that reflect a bit of a change in mentality since then? Furthermore there was anti homosexual songs before that song, and has been after that song... why do we keep talking about this song especially like it lead the homosexual hate crime movements?

[editor]

It appears that some speech is more free than others.
You are free speak your mind as long as you don't speak what is on your mind. :eusa_wall :confused: :rolleyes:

[AngelsKiss]

It appears that some speech is more free than others.
You are free speak your mind as long as you don't speak what is on your mind. :eusa_wall :confused: :rolleyes:

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

:)

[ramesh]

It appears that some speech is more free than others.
You are free speak your mind as long as you don't speak what is on your mind. :eusa_wall :confused: :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but I'm tired of hearing this free speech ploy. Does free speech mean freedom to slander/libel, freedom to lie, freedom to curse your spouse's face till they lie there cowering? Does free speech mean freedom to inspire hatred and bigotry?

Just take a look at a recent post I made with very few words. Words have more power than you know. Words are more powerful than swords. God is said to have created the Heavens and the Earth with just one word. Words can hurt your best friend, start wars, topple Kings. Had I just been a little more tactful, things would have worked out. But I just had to put my foot in my mouth and make a mess of things, didn't I?

Haven't you ever been the victim of a bully's mocking in school? Didn't it hurt?

[Drew]

ok i'm really happy to hear this. anyone read in yesterday's paper that the promoters of reggae sumfest have no intentions of getting the artistes that are performing this year to tone down the use of anti-gay lyrics. all they did, which they have done every year since the show has been held is tell the artistes no profound language.

i am really happy to hear that, and wonder what the gay community reaction to it is gonna be. i'll try to find a link to show you guys.

[AngelsKiss]

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of hearing this free speech ploy. Does free speech mean freedom to slander/libel, freedom to lie, freedom to curse your spouse's face till they lie there cowering? Does free speech mean freedom to inspire hatred and bigotry?

Just take a look at a recent post I made with very few words. Words have more power than you know. Words are more powerful than swords. God is said to have created the Heavens and the Earth with just one word. Words can hurt your best friend, start wars, topple Kings. Had I just been a little more tactful, things would have worked out. But I just had to put my foot in my mouth and make a mess of things, didn't I?

Haven't you ever been the victim of a bully's mocking in school? Didn't it hurt?
Ramesh...many ppl don't unnderstand that the power of freedom comes with responsibilities.

In an earlier post I quoted some scriptures so we would understand that freedom of speech is about being responsible for the things that comes out of one's mouth.

The funny thing is there are many of us who complains of the violence in our society but have no problem with DJs spouting violence at homosexuals. Some of them call themselves Christians too. It boggles the mind!

[Pondadat]

ok i'm really happy to hear this. anyone read in yesterday's paper that the promoters of reggae sumfest have no intentions of getting the artistes that are performing this year to tone down the use of anti-gay lyrics. all they did, which they have done every year since the show has been held is tell the artistes no profound language.

i am really happy to hear that, and wonder what the gay community reaction to it is gonna be. i'll try to find a link to show you guys.

You are happy to hear that these people are allowing these so-called artist to perform and promote hate. Is that what you are happy about? To me thats a truck load of crap and you can dump it on people who want to hear that.

I think Angel has made some good points here that these people use words to hate other people. They use words to violate other people and harrass them and that is cool. Let me ask you something Drew, why are they continuing to keep targeting the gay community? Is the gay community after them or something I havent heard about. They use these lyrics to sell their hateful music and you think that's cool. You might be one of those people that call themselves Christian too.

[AngelsKiss]

I just happened to get my hand on a dancehall CD call Hott2Death Jamaica3. A friend asked me to send it to some one in the states and so I decided to see what on there. Now I usually don't listen to dancehall music and I have heard ppl complain of the content but I didn't realised how ridiculous and stupid some of these songs really are. Good grief, how can any one in their right mind listen to some of these songs I don't know. Here's an example:

Kartel - Trick har N F@ck har...now if this isn't crap music I don't know what it is.

[Drew]

well the reason i'm happy about it is simply this. i want to know what the gay community is going to do about this show. they can ban shows in their communities and they are trying to tell us what to do. i just glad that to see that there influence isn't that powerful as it seems.

you see me targeting the gay community?? i just have a problem with people that have no authority to tell someone what to do. and accuse them of doing the same thing that they are doing.

why is it called hate music. please, you don't like the music don't listen to it. same as this post you don't have to read it. cause i have the right to say and express anything that comes to my mind just like these guys are.

LMAO, AK thats why you don't listen to kartel darling. he doesn't have much to say. try another artist.

ps. angel you see why i can't bother with these discussions.

[Drew]

They use these lyrics to sell their hateful music and you think that's cool.
they speak whats on their minds. thats how they sell music. wake up and realize something darling, majority of jamaica have no use for homosexuals. they don't like em. an artist gets up and puts it in his song, it gets attention. they sing about issues in their country.

so what about the good songs. how about sizzla's tune "they can't keep a good man down" now i rate that song very much. but he also turns around a sings about homos and you all say that he is worthless and is hate music.

how about another tune by him "its for you to make the best in life." no, unu don't know bout these songs cause u don't give them a chance. all you know is the one or two tune and you judge the rest of them off that.

[AngelsKiss]

why is it called hate music. please, you don't like the music don't listen to it. same as this post you don't have to read it. cause i have the right to say and express anything that comes to my mind just like these guys are.

It's called hate music because it has lyrics that are just that, hateful. When some one sings that another must die, that's hateful.

Drew you may have a right to say and express anything that comes from your mind, but you also have a responsibility to think about what you say and how you say it. What comes from the mouth comes from the heart. BTW You don't exactly have a right to say and express anything that comes to your mind on this forum. I am sure ifyou spouted something hateful the moderators would take you to task for it and so it should be. We should understand that we can disagree without being disrespectful, rude or hateful.

Violence only begets more violence and we shouldnt be spouting hateful words at any one even if we disagree with their lifestyle. There are ways of expressing one's self without using expressions such as "all b@ttyman fi dead"

LMAO, AK thats why you don't listen to kartel darling. he doesn't have much to say. try another artist.

I don't listen to Kartel...I just happened to browse the CD and saw the title and decided to see if the title was really what the music was about. To my surprise it was. Like I said what I find interesting is that ppl actually listen to this kind of stuff, its nasty, distasteful and disgusting!

[AngelsKiss]

they speak whats on their minds. thats how they sell music. wake up and realize something darling, majority of jamaica have no use for homosexuals. they don't like em. an artist gets up and puts it in his song, it gets attention. they sing about issues in their country.

so what about the good songs. how about sizzla's tune "they can't keep a good man down" now i rate that song very much. but he also turns around a sings about homos and you all say that he is worthless and is hate music.

how about another tune by him "its for you to make the best in life." no, unu don't know bout these songs cause u don't give them a chance. all you know is the one or two tune and you judge the rest of them off that.

I don't think most ppl have a problem with artist singing about issues related to every day living. However, it's not what you do and say but how you do and say things that often times create problems.

I have no problems with artists who feel the need to speak out, by all means do so, but not if what you have to say is filled with hateful and violent lyrics.

[editor]

As I read through the post on this topic one thing sticks out, no pun intended :D . Seriously though, there appears to be a huge disconnect that no one is trying to bridge. The poverty gap with everything that it brings with it including frustration and acting out, must be addressed. Look, I am not advocating violence on any living soul, however, if we want results attacking the symptoms is not and has not ever yielded positive results :eusa_wall .

I put it to you stop beating up the youths, try and channel and challenge thier energies :eusa_thin :eusa_thin .