Luck or Providence?

[Xenocrates]

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the concept of choice derived to man is on a different plane from absolute control?.

- The concept of choice wasn't derived to man. It was derived by man.

Mankind is certainly not on the same level/dimension/plane as God. The little choices that we make in our little reality has really no effect on who God is.

- Irrelevant. God controls all planes of existence.

It is important for us to note that choice is also not a synonym for control. They are two different concepts. The relationship between choice and control when possessed by opposing entities is not necessarily inversed in all cases. They are not really true synonyms and they are certainly not opposites.

- To choose is to effect change which is synonymous with control.

I reiterate again, God is not tied down to our realm.

- Which is why I'm right.

We are however tied down, we cannot move unless God says so.

- Again, exactly why I'm right.

I still don't see how God loses control if we can only move if He allows it.

- Because every facet of your existence is a part of His design. Therefore, everything you do is predicated by God's control, not yours.

The control that God has and the control that humans exhibit are too different things. The scale on which God exhibits control is far more superior to that of humans.

- Humans don't exhibit any control if everything they do was already pre-scripted by God.

Obviously God's control encapsulates everything, every possible permutation.

- Which is again, why we have no control.

If we have control, our control has already been calculated and taken into consideration

- Which is why it is only an illusion. Choice is an illusion of control.

...so it doesn't really matter to God in the long run.

- Everything matters to God irrespective of the length of the run. That's why we define him as being omnipotent and omniscient.

[silentburn]

- The concept of choice wasn't derived to man. It was derived by man.

I disagree with this point. A little child understands the concept of choice, illusion or not, the first human had some semblance of choice. The so called 'illusion of choice' was not perfected by humans over thousands of years. It is something ingrained in us from the inception humanity.

- Irrelevant. God controls all planes of existence.

Exactly, so we can't do anything that He doesn't want us to do. He allows us to follow our own logic or emotions to arrive at predetermined options.

- To choose is to effect change which is synonymous with control.

Yes, but does predefined choices really effect change or do those choices just follow set patterns? If the choices that mankind makes are predetermined then how can man be in control if he can only pick from options made available to him? Remember, God is the one who makes those options available. Choice is not synonymous with Control, they are two different things. They may be intertwined but they are not synonymous.

- Which is why I'm right.
- Again, exactly why I'm right.

Yes we both agree that God has absolute control

- Because every facet of your existence is a part of His design. Therefore, everything you do is predicated by God's control, not yours.

Yes, and since every facet of our existence is designed then any choice we would have made has already been analyzed hence why God is still in control even if a human has some semblance of choice.

- Humans don't exhibit any control if everything they do was already pre-scripted by God.
- Which is again, why we have no control.
- Which is why it is only an illusion. Choice is an illusion of control.

Choice is a real concept to humans. We are not God, we are not omniscient, we were given a concept of choice to exist as intelligent beings. The point is that every facet of our life is affected by decisions. If it is an illusion, the illusion was created by God. The illusions play a part in determining how we will end up in the long run.

The rules of a video game are usually defined and there are only a limited amount of ways to win that game. Even though the game is not real we still have to take specific options if we want to win. Similarly, it doesn't matter whether choice is an illusion or not. Humans are the ones stuck on earth, there's absolutely no way to escape. We have to play by the rules, we are allowed the concept of choice in our frame of existence.

The concept of choice is real and living when considered on the plane of humanity.

[Xenocrates]

This is fun.

Ok, I can see this concept is difficult for you to understand. So let's try this a different way:

Cause and Effect

Every action in the universe is a result of cause and effect. Think of the universe as a giant array of dominoes, and God knocked over the first domino. After that, zillions of dominoes in every which direction have started to topple over each other. You're just one of a bazillion, gazillion, katrillion, gajillion, quitrillion, zillion, billion dominoes in the universe, each knocking over each other in what appears to be an infinite chain of cause and effect; hence why choice does not exist. Everything you do has already been predetermined by the pre-arrangement of the array of all the dominoes in the universe. When God tipped over the first domino, he set the universe in motion as a self regulated, automated machine. So you're not actually choosing to do anything. You're just one domino falling over into several trillion others while simultaneously, you were one of trillions of other domnioes toppled over by trillions of others. Everything in the universe is connected and ordered like that. There is no randomness about anything.

As such, we only say "choice" when some of the dominoes are imperceptible to human sensibility.

Get it?

[silentburn]

This is fun.

Ok, I can see this concept is difficult for you to understand. So let's try this a different way:

I understand your concept perfectly. I'm just choosing to disagree.

Everything you do has already been predetermined by the pre-arrangement of the array of all the dominoes in the universe.

We still don't know how those dominoes will fall, only God knows that, therefore we still have to make choices. Choices exist, whether in illusion form or not. The concept of choice was implanted in us from the inception. All I'm saying is that from the human perspective choice is a very real and inescapable thing. As I have said earlier, it is impossible for us to escape the game of life. We have to play through to the end.

Decisions must be made. This is our reality. We are not gods, we are not omniscient.

[Xenocrates]

You think you're disagreeing with me, but somehow you're not. Furthermore there's only one way each domino can fall. That's why choice doesn't exist.

[silentburn]

We are agreeing that God is omniscient so he knows the end from the beginning. We are however disagreeing that God's omniscience immediately rids us of our life and the way we choose to live it. Our choice is taken away when God cuts us off or seals us. He allows it to play out. He could fast forward and just bring us to the end but He allows it to play out.

Yea, the dominoes may be only falling one way but humans can't even see the direction of that cascading fall. Therefore, from a human perspective, choice exist, simply because we still have to wade our way through life, there's nothing we can do to escape. God's omniscience does not allow us to escape our present life nor the choices/decisions which are attached to that life.

[Xenocrates]

We are however disagreeing that God's omniscience immediately rids us of our life and the way we choose to live it.

- I never once said that we humans will not perceive choice. I've said it over and over again: We perceive choice when we can't see all the variables. I've said it a thousand different ways in this same thread. I merely changed my wording to produce this:

Yea, the dominoes may be only falling one way but humans can't even see the direction of that cascading fall. Therefore, from a human perspective, choice exist, simply because we still have to wade our way through life, there's nothing we can do to escape. God's omniscience does not allow us to escape our present life nor the choices/decisions which are attached to that life.

- Which is exactly what I wanted to hear. Finally we agree. Thank you for seeing things my way. I hereby rest my case.

[silentburn]

Good. So we do agree that God is omnipotent(powerful) enough to disallow His omniscience(infinite foreknowledge) from interfering with the ultimate choice of life or death, which is the final combination of all the choices a human makes throughout his life.

Ok, its settled.

[Xenocrates]

Good. So we do agree that God is omnipotent(powerful) enough to disallow His omniscience(infinite foreknowledge) from interfering with the ultimate choice of life or death, which is the final combination of all the choices a human makes throughout his life.

- Is that what you've been saying all along? LMAO

We're gonna need a new thread.