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Thread: Luck or Providence?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    Actually, we've discussed other aspects of it. However, if you can define God, then you'll be able to see my rationale.
    Copyright 2003 - 2008, Xenocratesian Institute of Awesomeness
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    Ok here's a definition. God is all knowing, all powerful and omnipresent.

    I could also say God is love but then that would send us down another path we have also visited on other occasions.

    Did you take in my last post in its entirety? I added some other issues after editing.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    Well your definition is correct. So it shouldn't be an issue to see why I say that luck doesn't exist. There's a curious thing about people tho: If they've been at the business end of enough providential occurrences, they'll think that they're "lucky" people. I prefer to say that they've been "chosen" or "blessed", cuz the big dude is still running the show. You follow me? On the other hand, if people have had equal distributions of providence and misfortune, they tend to see the glass as only half full, and say that they're unlucky. Strange, huh?
    Copyright 2003 - 2008, Xenocratesian Institute of Awesomeness
    Example is better than Indoctrination @ http://xenlogic.wordpress.com
    "Xenocratus locuti est; causa finita est"
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenocrates View Post
    You shouldn't let my confidence in what I think thwart your attempt to prove me wrong. You should never assume that someone who can string an argument together is automatically right. Otherwise, you could be taken advantage of by "smart" people who are intellectually dishonest. How else are you gonna know if I'm just pulling the wool over your eyes if you're not willing to challenge what I think? Just cuz I said so, it doesn't mean that it is so. C'mon, take your best shot. Define God.
    GOD IS .

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    Let me bring this point up again.

    God has absolute control over the show, that is a given. Does having control mean He has to manually control every single direction in which the wind blows?

    Here's a scenario. A parent has a young child, child decides to run and frolic on a wet slippery surface. Parent says ''do not run you will fall'', child still disobeys, parent says ''do not run'' child still runs on wet surface. Eventually the child slips and cuts up his knee.

    The parent had control over the situation, the parent could have grabbed the child, put on a few slaps and tell him to sit the hell down and keep quiet. The parent was however still in control even though the child disobeyed. The parent knew the possible outcomes of situation but still allowed the child to continue in his folly so that a lesson could be learned. The child had a choice to obey or disobey even though the parent could have forced control.

    Similarly, a God who is all powerful and all knowing does not have to disallow choice. Our choice does not affect God one way or the other, He is still all knowing and He's still all powerful with or without His subjects having choice.
    Last edited by silentburn; September 9, 2007 at 11:52 PM.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    I started this thread, because some folks believe that they are more favoured for good fortune than those that don't subscribe to religion. It seems audacious to me.
    Money can't buy happiness, but it will buy the type of misery one can enjoy.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    To say that God allows choice is the same thing as saying that God does not control everything - meaning every, minute, detail.

    BM

    Those people are morons.
    Copyright 2003 - 2008, Xenocratesian Institute of Awesomeness
    Example is better than Indoctrination @ http://xenlogic.wordpress.com
    "Xenocratus locuti est; causa finita est"
    All Rights Reserved.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenocrates View Post
    To say that God allows choice is the same thing as saying that God does not control everything - meaning every, minute, detail.
    How does choice negate control if the person allowing the choice already knows the outcome?

    In the parent/child scenario in my last post the parent had control over the child even though the child was allowed to continue on his slippery path. The child's choice did not affect the parent's control. The parent knew the outcome so choice was allowed.
    Last edited by silentburn; September 10, 2007 at 12:16 AM.

  9. #19
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    Wink Re: Luck or Providence?

    Quote Originally Posted by silentburn View Post
    How does choice negate control if the person allowing the choice already knows the outcome?
    - Because choice, if it existed, is in actuality a transfer of control to the entity making the choice. This means that at that specific moment in time, God is not in control of the event. Furthermore, it is a conflicting argument to say that God knows the outcome if he's not in control of the event. He knows the outcome because he's in control of the event at EVERY point. He never relinquishes control at any point in time - ever. That's what we mean when we say that God is all powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentburn View Post
    In the parent/child scenario in my last post the parent had control over the child even though the child was allowed to continue on his slippery path. The child's choice did not affect the parent's control. The parent knew the outcome so choice was allowed.
    - You can't compare parents and God. God isn't human. Furthermore, parents have very limited control over their children. This is why Christianity is a flawed religion. This anthropomorphic belief system is why so many people turn away from it.
    Copyright 2003 - 2008, Xenocratesian Institute of Awesomeness
    Example is better than Indoctrination @ http://xenlogic.wordpress.com
    "Xenocratus locuti est; causa finita est"
    All Rights Reserved.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Luck or Providence?

    I still disagree. Choice does not negate Control.

    A authoritative entity can give a person 2 choices. The subject can either choose to do A or B. Is control lost because a choice is given? Keep in mind that that the choices are mutually exclusive, meaning its either one or the other. There is no option C.

    God is still in control even if He allows choice because He is the one who sets up the options. Isn't that straight forward?


    This question below is the only way in which the existence of choice can be disproved.
    Can an Entity give choice if the said Entity already knows the option that the subject will choose? Would it still be choice since the outcome is already known?
    Last edited by silentburn; September 10, 2007 at 01:09 AM.

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